Is the Father greater than the Son?

[The_Catholic]

Two friends of mine, christians, have trouble believing in the Trinity. They believe that if it does exisit then God the Father is the greatest or most important of it. The Father is more important than Jesus because Jesus does the Father’s will and not His own desires. And the Holy Spirit is considdered a little lower than Christ.

But Christ never challenges the true power of His Father, nor does he sit in God’s throne but at His right hand. And even if Jesus and God are equal in power then Jesus is still less because He submits Himself to the will of God.

Then they go on to say that Jesus is the image, voice, and only begotton son of God.

I know of the many verses these beliefs come from, and that’s their support, along with some early christians such as Arius of Arianism, and even before. But how do you answer these things?

I have always believed that Christ is Eternal God in the flesh.

 

[water]

First of all, we will never understand the mistery of the Holy Trinity. It is something that is way beyond our knowledge. We thought we had bigger brain than a monkey and try to think all things logically.

However, few things we know for sure that Holy Spirit cannot be any less than Jesus; and Jesus cannot be less than the Father.

Jesus says No one can come to the Father except through Me. Now, if Jesus is just the image, the voice, then how could it be so important for us to accept Jesus in order for us being accepted by our Father.

Also, If the Holy Spirit is considered to be a little lower than Jesus, then what the Bible says about blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It says that if you sin against the Son of God, you can be forgiven, but if you sin against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven.

I only said a few things to prove the contradiction of those friends of yours. Other replies will explain further about the Holy Trinity.

 

[The_Catholic]

First of all, we will never understand the mistery of the Holy Trinity. It is something that is way beyond our knowledge. We thought we had bigger brain than a monkey and try to think all things logically.

However, few things we know for sure that Holy Spirit cannot be any less than Jesus; and Jesus cannot be less than the Father.

Jesus says No one can come to the Father except through Me. Now, if Jesus is just the image, the voice, then how could it be so important for us to accept Jesus in order for us being accepted by our Father.

Also, If the Holy Spirit is considered to be a little lower than Jesus, then what the Bible says about blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It says that if you sin against the Son of God, you can be forgiven, but if you sin against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven.

I only said a few things to prove the contradiction of those friends of yours. Other replies will explain further about the Holy Trinity.

Thank you. I await more answers too. But I just want to say that these two friends of mine are the best friends I have. We all used to go to Church together, Protestant. Now I’m Catholic, and they just call themselves ‘christians.’ One goes to the Seventh-Day Adventist Church (but doesn’t agree with all of their doctrines) and the other is more of a lone ranger christian, but attends church sometimes.

But both of them have a high respect for the Catholic Church and do admit that the Catholic Church has the best claim to being the ‘one true Church of God.’ So I find it spiritual refreshing to fellowship with them. They’re both very humble and respectable. One of them even translated into English the ancient greek Bible used by the jews in the time of Christ.

So please don’t attack them. Just wanted to let you all know that these guys are not anti-catholics.

 

[water]

But both of them have a high respect for the Catholic Church and do admit that the Catholic Church has the best claim to being the ‘one true Church of God.’

One of them even translated into English the ancient greek Bible used by the jews in the time of Christ.

So please don’t attack them. Just wanted to let you all know that these guys are not anti-catholics.

I don’t think anyone here likes to attack your friends. It sounds like you can pray a lot for your friends to accept the Truth.

By the way, it is great for your friend to translate Bible, but translating to its exact meaning is not an easy task. As you may have known, non-Catholic Christians translating the Bible to the way they think it is right has really given them problems in believing the full Truth.

 

[Damascus]

Show them a Shamrock. Cant hurt and might save you a whole lot of time and energy.

 

[The_Catholic]

I don’t think anyone here likes to attack your friends. It sounds like you can pray a lot for your friends to accept the Truth.

By the way, it is great for your friend to translate Bible, but translating to its exact meaning is not an easy task. As you may have known, non-Catholic Christians translating the Bible to the way they think it is right has really given them problems in believing the full Truth.

I’m aware of that. But he used a word-for-word translation style of the ancient greek Bible into english all together in one book. The greek on the right, the english on the left. He only did it so he doesn’t have to go back and forth with three to five books all the time looking at the original meanings of the words.

He also doesn’t approve of bible translations where scholars translate a word or verse, that’s difficult understand in the original language, to their own interprations. He’s honest.

But not to change the subject. I await more answers to my original question. Thanks.

 

[Northwind]

Well, I can offer one or two suggestions…

And even if Jesus and God are equal in power then Jesus is still less because He submits Himself to the will of God.

This does not equal inequality. It is a functional subordination or a social hierarchy. This is where one or more persons voluntarily take a position of subordination. A man and wife do this, where the man is typically the head of the household but no one would say the woman is lesser would they? The president is greater by virtue of his office but he is by no means ‘better’ than you or me.

These are situations where all involved are equal but take a subordinate role to accomplish a thing. God, as always shows us through example how things should be done.

If your friends are as well versed in greek as to transcribe the NT text then they/he is well aware of the deity of Jesus Christ and should be aware of His dual nature.

When he translated John 1:18 he would have seen that the text says ‘God uniquely begotten’ in the greek. He would have seen a distinct difference in Jesus’ humanity and His deity, the NT is replete with examples of both…hope this helps

 

[Veritas41]

Like everything else, a verse/statement in Scripture has to be understood not in isolation but in relation to other verses.

Jesus in John 10:29-30 says, “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” I don’t know Greek, and I’m basing this on the notes of my study Bible, which says “one” here refers to “one thing” not “one person.” Jesus is saying He and the Father are one in essence or nature, which would make them equal. So why does He say the Father is “greater”? Because of the Incarnation. In becoming a man, Jesus had to be obedient to the Father, and in that sense, the Father is “greater” because He is the one the Son of Man had to obey. It’s a matter of role, not essence. Just like the relationship between men and women, with men being the “head” of the family, and spiritual authority in the Church, gets misconstrued as implying women are intrinsically inferior to men, when it’s really just a matter of assigned roles.

 

[FCEGM]

Two friends of mine, christians, have trouble believing in the Trinity. They believe that if it does exisit then God the Father is the greatest or most important of it. The Father is more important than Jesus because Jesus does the Father’s will and not His own desires. And the Holy Spirit is considdered a little lower than Christ.

But Christ never challenges the true power of His Father, nor does he sit in God’s throne but at His right hand. And even if Jesus and God are equal in power then Jesus is still less because He submits Himself to the will of God.

Then they go on to say that Jesus is the image, voice, and only begotton son of God.

I know of the many verses these beliefs come from, and that’s their support, along with some early christians such as Arius of Arianism, and even before. But how do you answer these things?

I have always believed that Christ is Eternal God in the flesh.

A book you and your friends would find very helpful in coming to a good understanding of the Most Holy Trinity (as far as it is possible to understand this great Mystery) is Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners. The author gives a very thorough - but not difficult to read - exposition on this central doctrine of Christianity.

And just for a brief overview regarding the divinity of Christ, Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., in his Our Savior and His Love for Us, presents a nice summation of the Lord’s own claims to divinity:

1. Jesus accepted adoration (Matt. 8:2; 28:9; Mark 5:6), of which Peter, Paul, and Barnabas - and even the angels in the Apocalypse - declared themselves unworthy.

1. He is superior to all creatures: greater than Jonas, than Solomon, than David, than Moses, than Elias, than John the Baptist; and He is superior to the angels, who are “His angels” (Matt. 24:31).

1. He demands with regard to Himself, faith, obedience, and love, even to the abnegation of any contrary affection and to the sacrifice of one’s life.

1. He spoke as the supreme Lawgiver, in the Sermon on the Mount

1. He performed miracles in His own name

1. He claimed the power to remit sins and has conferred this power on others.

1. He claimed the power to judge the living and the dead of all human generations.

1. He promised to send the Holy ghost, and His promised was accomplished on Pentecost.

Jesus can claim these rights and powers only if He is not merely God’s envoy, the Messiah, but God Himself. He affirmed His Godhead only in a veiled manner in order to prepare souls little by little to receive a more explicit affirmation, which was to become increasingly clear and powerful up to the moment of His condemnation to death.

 

[rwoehmke]

The members of the Trinity have perfect love for one another. In this love Jesus does the will of the Father out of love rather than subordination. In human terems, when a father has a son, the son is subordinate to him while growing, but having reached full stature and maybe 30 years of age he might still do things asked of him by his father out of love and respect. No longer is he subordinate. Jesus as the Christ was fully human in his body and susceptible to every thing human except sin. Out of love for the Father and his love for man Jesus willingly sacrificed himself dispite his human dread in the Garden of what was to come. Jesus is interesting in many ways because in his person he was both human and divine at the same time. Although the divine nature is not subject to death, because Jesus in his personhood was both human and divine at the same time, we can say that God died on the cross for us because Jesus was and is God. Natures do not die, only persons can die and Jesus truly died. It can be very confusing when we try to make sense of it all. Thats why there were many who followed the Arian heresy.

 

[StRaphael]

Jesus said, “The Father is greater than I.” [Jn 14:28] Does this mean that the Father is greater in His divine nature than the Son? No. It means that the Son is less than the Father in His humanity, as the brilliant (and my favorite) theologian St. Thomas Aquinas shows. The Son is eternally equal to the Father in greatness. How is this true? Equality is a measure of greatness, greatness in God is the perfection of nature, greatness is essential to God, and therefore there is equality in God. The Father and Son have the same essence and dignity, and this dignity is expressed as the relation of giver by the Father and the relation of receiver by the Son. The whole perfection of the divine nature exists in each of the three persons of the Holy Trinity; ergo, the sum of the four relations in God is not greater than any one relation, nor are all the persons together greater than any one person.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

As far as the Divine Essence goes, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are absolutely equal in nature/essence, being fully deity.

As for relations in the Trinity,
the Father is of course said by the Son to be “greater” than He is because the father eternally generates / is the source of, the Son. And the Father and the Son together from all eternity are the source from which the Holy Spirit proceeds.

Look at a TREE.
A tree is Root, Trunk, and Branches.
The root is fully “tree”
The trunk is fully “tree”
and The Branches are fully “tree”.
But there are not three trees, you are only looking at ONE tree.
The root is not the Trunk, the Trunk is not the Root, and the Branches are neither root nor trunk, but the essence of all three
is “tree” essence. In the same way, in the Trinity, the essence, one and indivisible, of each of the three persons, is Deity, Godhead. Yet, there are not three gods, but ONE God in three
“persons.” I hope this helps.

God bless,
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)

 

[StRaphael]

Jaypeeto4, of all the analogies of the Trinity, yours is one of the best! Thank you!

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Why, thank you, StRaphael.
God bless you too.

 

[Mijoy2]

I don’t know if this is will help or hurt but this is how I have learned to conceptualize the Holy Trinity.

Love, pure and simple. Without the Father or the Son the triune Love would be impossible, the Holy Spirit embodies this Love, He trancends from the Love of the Father/Son relationship as a child trancends from the (appropriate)Love of the marital embrace.

All three components are necassary for there to be Love. Love, is God. Love is everything. Love, cannot exist in solitude.

 

[Damascus]

Maybe if you want to make this more interesting, ask our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ on their section of the forum if you doubt this issue and need more early father information they are all too forthcoming with!