Is the god of the old testament evil?

[josie_L]

fair enough kalt, go to youtube and search for these keywords, should be the first result for each:

Jephthah (Judges 11)

An Atheist Reads the Bible - 4 - Slavery

Biblical Evidence Proving That God is Evil

yes, it is wrong to tell people looking for answers that the solution to their problems is human sacrifice. not sure where the line is drawn with todays law, but Im pretty sure that going around telling people you will pay money to have someone killed is a criminal offense, to answer your “but its just an idea” defense.

of course people debated the lochness monster in the course of proving it didnt exist. they would certainly debate its morality too, if people were going around saying it was a source of morality. Especially if those people advocating its morality were also saying to murder children and burn their bodies because the lochness monster likes the smell

Convert66 which way is it? you lambast popular culture for glorifying violence in the same breath as you insist that this case of violence is acceptable. killing people isnt wrong because it happens in stories? villainy in movies is used to complement and highlight heroism, wheres the heroism here? we just have a guy killing alot of people, then killing his daughter.

god didnt initiate the vow? yet he fulfilled it. or are you going to attempt to claim that god doesnt do things like affect the outcome of battles, when the whole story is about human sacrifice in exchange for god to manipulate the outcome of battles. exactly what would give jehpthah the impression that god would want a burnt offering anyway? why would this sad story be included if such a thing wasnt encouraged?

lets take two seconds to think of a way to resolve this better hmm… Jephthah is going around offering human sacrifices- how about he and everyone else with that morality just die in battle? or god just says “hey its cool, you dont need to sacrifice anyone, for any reason, ever”? or his army hears about his vow and slaughters him? or his wife stands up to him and defends their daughter? failing that, his daughter run away? (thats what she would do if she hadnt been reduced to a thing, a mere prop for this repulsive story) loads of options there.

Ammonite’s kill their own children? maybe its true, or maybe victors write history. still doesnt change the fact that youre celebrating jephthah doing the same.

whether or not the story is true, its still horrible.

and ease off on the personal attacks, youre floundering.

I think Richard Dawkins is evil.

 

[Convert66]

curioosbadger . . .

I personally find the story abhorrent. I never said anything about the case being “acceptable”, merely a lot more understandable in it’s context and on its own terms. It is abhorrent in our context, but I do not presume that my particular moment in time has the market cornered on morality. Quite the contrary.

Did I make the claim that “killing people isn’t wrong because it happens in stories?” It’s nonsensical if I did and a non-sequitur based upon what I have written so far.

Villainy in movies is sometimes used to contrast villainy and heroism. As for the heroism in Judges 11 I do not see it explicitly, but it is implied based upon what we know about warfare, not based upon what we know of Jephthah’s vow or actions.

god didnt initiate the vow? yet he fulfilled it.

Taken in context with the other depictions of Israel’s wars throughout Scripture the more likely explanation is that God “fought for Israel” because it was His purpose to preserve them based upon His covenant with them, and not because of Jephthah’s vow. Perhaps even in spite of it, though that is not explicitly stated either.

I would not attempt to claim that God did not affect the outcome of battles. But you still miss the point of the story if you think the “whole story is about human sacrifice in exchange for god to manipulate the outcome of battle.” That is not what the whole story is about, as I’ve labored to convey earlier in the thread. That you do not agree is clear. But again, the point of this story is solely about fulfilling a vow despite its pains to one’s self, and not about God requiring human sacrifices. All you must do is carefully read the OT to see numerous examples that your premise is the opposite of the truth.

exactly what would give jehpthah the impression that god would want a burnt offering anyway?

This is a good question, and one that I can likely not do justice towards, but the sacrifical system was undoubtedly in place long prior to Jephthah’s time. Human sacrifice was a common practice in the region as is obvious by reading the many times such practices were criticized and condemned in Scripture or any decent history chronicling what is known of the pre-Monarchic Semitic peoples. I recall that many Israelites participated in human sacrifice, especially prior to the Monarchic period and given that Jephthah was rejected for being a harlot’s son by his own people, and driven out to dwell with what we might call “brigands” or “criminal elements” he was likely quite familiar with the practice amongst his fellows and amongst peoples like the Ammonites. I think that even Solomon erected temples to pagan deities, although it is not known whther or not human sacrifices were ever performed there.

why would this sad story be included if such a thing wasnt encouraged?

Perhaps, because it really happened.

take two seconds to think of a way to resolve this better hmm…

By this you mean, of course, given two-thousand years of Judeo-Christian ethics and morality (borrowed by the atheist for their own purposes) sitting in my air-conditioned room, having harnessed the power of nature for my own convenience and having the benefits of libraries full of materials, let us take two seconds to resolve this better . . .hmm?

Jephthah is going around offering human sacrifices- how about he and everyone else with that morality just die in battle?

It appears that a great many did just that. Where are the Ammonites today? Jephthah died long ago as well.

or god just says “hey its cool, you dont need to sacrifice anyone, for any reason, ever”?

Again, Jepthah made the vow, not God. That people of that time took their vows seriously may be hard to understand given two seconds to resolve things better, but it remains that God did expect folks to fulfill their vows and folks expected themselves to fulfill those vows as well.

Yep. Loads of options from our perspective. I’m sure there were loads of other options for the peoples of the Black Forest, or the Vikings, or the Mayans and the Aztecs or the American Indians too, from our perspective. Unfortunately they lived in different eras without the many benefits of our moment in history. Perhaps two folks in the future to come will debate how we had loads of other options when it comes to sacrificing babies in their mothers wombs or loads of other options for internet pornography addicts, or loads of other options than ceding personal freedoms to centralized governments.

Is Howard Zinn a victor? What has he won? How do we know of the Gnostics? They didn’t win. The Romans certainly won for hundreds of years over the early Church, but we know the writings of the Patristics, and vice-versa, once Christianity became the official religion of the empire Christians, being the victors, so to speak, preserved the classical literature of the pagan empires, and did so again when they were nearly defeated at the hands of Muslim armies . . .yet we still have Muslim and Christian and pagan histories. We even have Confederate biographies despite the Union’s victory. Yes, victors write histories, but so do the vanquished.

Celebrating? I’ve never once lit a candle to commemorate Jephthahs actions, nor said a prayer, blew up a balloon, bought a gift or decorated a tree because of Judges 11. Care to rethink that word, “celebrating?” As I said above, I am merely attempting to deal seriously with the text on its own terms in its own cultural milieu without the particular prejudices of happening to be alive thousands of years later in our current cultural milieu.

I wasn’t aware that I hurled any personal attacks. If so, I do apologize. My intention was strictly polemical, not personal.

All my best . . .

 

[Convert66]

CharlesDarwin writes:

Originally Posted by Convert66
You refuse to accept that honor or faith are things worthy of killing and/or dying for

CD: Guess you agree with 9/11 then???

No, I leave that to the leftists, like Ward Churchill. However, I am willing to look past my own prejudices and attempt to understand Bin Laden’s and Al-Qaeda’s motives on their own terms.

All my best . . .

 

[curioosbadger]

the point of this story is solely about fulfilling a vow despite its pains to one’s self, and not about God requiring human sacrifices.

isnt there a better way to make that point though? a way that doesnt infer that there is an excuse to every rule?

given two-thousand years of Judeo-Christian ethics and morality

whats the point of having it if you arnt going to use it?

I dont know, maybe theyre just horrible stories for the sake of being horrible stories, to produce the exact conversation we’re having here?

 

[Charles_Darwin]

What was done on 9/11 was cowardly and not an act of honor at all.

it was claimed that “honor or faith are things worthy of killing and/or dying for”

So then that person must agree with 9/11

 

[Charles_Darwin]

CharlesDarwin writes:

No, I leave that to the leftists, like Ward Churchill. However, I am willing to look past my own prejudices and attempt to understand Bin Laden’s and Al-Qaeda’s motives on their own terms.

All my best . . .

Jesus was a lefty?

You said faith is worth killing and dying for so then you must agree with 9/11?

 

[kalt]

Jesus was a lefty?

You said faith is worth killing and dying for so then you must agree with 9/11?

No, Silly, only when it’s for your own faith.

There are times when killing is necessary, but 9/11 was mass murder, not justified killing.

What do you think of the concept of just war?

 

[Le_Cracquere]

… the three stooges, no action is too bizarre or motive too questionable, just so long as it gets us to the pie fight

So is that how society should function?

The devil always knows just how to tempt me.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

No, Silly, only when it’s for your own faith.

There are times when killing is necessary, but 9/11 was mass murder, not justified killing.

What do you think of the concept of just war?

I’d agree there can be just war. However that has nothing to do with his statement that faith is worth killing and dying for.

If we were to follow that line of thought, then 9/11 was a worth while act. I don’t believe it was.

 

[Convert66]

curioosbadger,

Quote:
given two-thousand years of Judeo-Christian ethics and morality

whats the point of having it if you arnt going to use it?

You and I are both appaled at the thought of throwing your daughter into the flames, but further, we are appaled at the thought of throwing anyone into the flames. Why is this so? Not because we are superior human beings to Jephthah or the Ammonites, but because we share a cultural heritage (namely Judeo-Christian) that has made such practices taboo. Pagan societies were nearly unanimous in their pedophilia, subjugation of women and slaves, infanticide, child abandonment and human sacrifice (either for sport or politicial or religious reasons). It was only as these societies were “Christianized” that those practices, some sooner than others, started to wane.

I dont know, maybe theyre just horrible stories for the sake of being horrible stories, to produce the exact conversation we’re having here?

Oddly enough, I had the same thought today at work. Maybe you’re right.

CharlesDarwin:

Originally Posted by Convert66
CharlesDarwin writes:
CD: Guess you agree with 9/11 then???

C66: No, I leave that to the leftists, like Ward Churchill. However, I am willing to look past my own prejudices and attempt to understand Bin Laden’s and Al-Qaeda’s motives on their own terms.

All my best . . .

CD: Jesus was a lefty?

I don’t recall Jesus issuing a statement one way or the other about 9/11. Ward Churchill seemed to “agree with 9/11 then”, when he called the victims “little Eichmann’s.” Jesus may have some lefty-leanings, but I think of Him as positively right-wing next to Ward Churchhill.

You said faith is worth killing and dying for so then you must agree with 9/11?

Well, not just any faith, though. But seriously, the willingness to die for a cause (be it faith, love, or pepperoni pizza) is, by my lights, one of the things that makes us human. Guppies do not face tanks in Tiannenmen square, and horses as a general rule do not oppose fascism. I assume that even the Loch Ness Monster, were he (or she) to exist would not immolate herself to protest religious oppression in Tibet or India.

The principle you are bothered by is sound. It’s the practice and the particulars that need to be weighed. Does Osama bin Laden have a point about the US government? Sure he does. Is he justified in opposing it in the way he opposes it? That’s a harder question. Harder still is whether he should kill civilians to wage his jihad, but I am certainly happy that we defeated Japan in WWII and I know that the firebombing of Tokyo killed thousands of civilians. So did the atomic weapons dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Was it just? It’s a hard question, but I defend in principle that the US had a right to defeat Japan and I defend in principle that Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda have a right to oppose US policy in the part of the world where they live and their people have lived long before oil was discovered there. Personally I think it was cowardly, just as a sucker punch is cowardly, but many people see nothing wrong with a sucker punch, and even more so when they are defending their honor or their loved ones or their politics or their faith.

I emphatically defend Osama Bin Laden’s right as a man to fight and die for what he believes. The rest, as of now, is between him and the 10th Mountain division. Personally I’m rooting for the Army and Marines, though, because I find it more barbaric to sacrifice prisoners to Allah than to waterboard terrorists.

This remains, however, that I respect Bin Laden as he is . . .as an enemy with serious ideas that have consequences rather than some distant and backwards crackpot deluded by his religion (I don’t think his is strictly a religious cause anyway—just a rallying cry and a point of unity, in much the same way Crusaders were recruited by appealing to their faith when defending Christendom wasn’t necessarily the motive of the European Kings funding the Crusade).

All my best . . .

 

[kalt]

fair enough kalt, go to youtube and search for these keywords, should be the first result for each:

Jephthah (Judges 11)

An Atheist Reads the Bible - 4 - Slavery

Biblical Evidence Proving That God is Evil

yes, it is wrong to tell people looking for answers that the solution to their problems is human sacrifice. not sure where the line is drawn with todays law, but Im pretty sure that going around telling people you will pay money to have someone killed is a criminal offense, to answer your “but its just an idea” defense.

of course people debated the lochness monster in the course of proving it didnt exist. they would certainly debate its morality too, if people were going around saying it was a source of morality. Especially if those people advocating its morality were also saying to murder children and burn their bodies because the lochness monster likes the smell

Convert66 which way is it? you lambast popular culture for glorifying violence in the same breath as you insist that this case of violence is acceptable. killing people isnt wrong because it happens in stories? villainy in movies is used to complement and highlight heroism, wheres the heroism here? we just have a guy killing alot of people, then killing his daughter.

god didnt initiate the vow? yet he fulfilled it. or are you going to attempt to claim that god doesnt do things like affect the outcome of battles, when the whole story is about human sacrifice in exchange for god to manipulate the outcome of battles. exactly what would give jehpthah the impression that god would want a burnt offering anyway? why would this sad story be included if such a thing wasnt encouraged?

lets take two seconds to think of a way to resolve this better hmm… Jephthah is going around offering human sacrifices- how about he and everyone else with that morality just die in battle? or god just says “hey its cool, you dont need to sacrifice anyone, for any reason, ever”? or his army hears about his vow and slaughters him? or his wife stands up to him and defends their daughter? failing that, his daughter run away? (thats what she would do if she hadnt been reduced to a thing, a mere prop for this repulsive story) loads of options there.

Ammonite’s kill their own children? maybe its true, or maybe victors write history. still doesnt change the fact that youre celebrating jephthah doing the same.

People looked at the evidence given for Nessie, found it lacking, and moved on. They don’t continue to debate the issue, since the case is closed.

Those who don’t believe in God have no reason to debate about God’s attributes, unless their goal is to convince others that God doesn’t exist. I suppose you think you’re doing it for the benefit of all mankind. Knock yourself out.

How did you decide to post on this site?

whether or not the story is true, its still horrible.

and ease off on the personal attacks, youre floundering.