Is the Holy Spirit real?

[dizzy_dave]

When Pentacostals and Assembly of God members are “Baptized” in the Holy Spirit is this real? How is it done, should it be done? I’ve heard some Catholics do this as well, is it the same concept? What if any differences are there? Is the Catholic version of it accepted by the church? If the Roman Catholic religion is the true church why does God allow such a grand thing like this to occur outside the true church. If they (protestants) do truly experience this then they will never come to the truth of the Catholic church, I don’t understand this.

 

[moira]

Would baptzing in the Holy Spirit be confirmation? Just wondering.

 

[Dave]

moira:

Would baptzing in the Holy Spirit be confirmation? Just wondering.

Yes

 

[Dave]

dizzy_dave:

When Pentacostals and Assembly of God members are “Baptized” in the Holy Spirit is this real? How is it done, should it be done? I’ve heard some Catholics do this as well, is it the same concept? What if any differences are there? Is the Catholic version of it accepted by the church? If the Roman Catholic religion is the true church why does God allow such a grand thing like this to occur outside the true church. If they (protestants) do truly experience this then they will never come to the truth of the Catholic church, I don’t understand this.

The Charismatic movement in the church experiences fully the Holy Spirit which is accepted. Many Catholics just seem reluctant to embrace it.

 

[Exporter]

I am going to be a “party pooper”.

If I am understanding the original post on this thread to be saying that members of the Pentacostal Division of the Protetant faith are “slain in the spirit” ( fall down), are “over come by the spirit” ( speak in unintellegable language) or start to dance “the Holy jig” ( they run in one place) then I have a comment.

I admit that all of these physical acts are possibly caused by the Holy Spirit. But I do NOT believe what we see on TV are true. These people are conditioned from childhood to behave that way. It is a habit that was learned.Remember Pavlov’s dogs were conditioned to salivate when a bell was rung. Yes this happened about WW I .

They force the responce to a stimulus the minister gives. It is a form of hypnotism, suggestion and conditioning. We don’t read of such things happening to the most saintly of the Catholics reaching back for 1500 years.

This sort of thing has been practiced, for the most part, since 1910 in the Umited States. Benny Hinn is famous for his “ability” to slay people in the spirit, why Benny Hinn?

 

[Hesychios]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

First, the Holy Spirit as a person of Our Triune God is the Ultimate Reality!

So to say, more real than you or I, or any saint or angel. The Holy Spirit is essentially God, or with the Father and the Son is God’s Essence.

So this would be a marvelous topic in itself. Far more than one thread could cover.

But we are discussing on this thread an experiential “sensory” infusion of the Holy Spirit. We cannot assume that any such experience is actually from God, we have actually no way of knowing. Among Pentacostals it is noteworthy that the “Spirit” often visits the same individuals with predictable regularity.

Saint Paul described it as one of the lesser gifts. There doesn’t seem to have been a connection with Confirmation/Chrismation as we know it. The church doesn’t expect or require an emotional reaction on our part to affirm the reality or genuineness of a sacrament.

Among many Protestants, this emotional reaction is a “sign” of salvation, a mark of “being saved”. The Church does not accept this as evidence of being saved, although it can be evidence of - or a reaction to metanoia.

The enthusiasm of “letting-go” could be the very human emotional reaction to a sincerely deep or open faith experience. More than likely self generated, it would be a form of auto-suggestion.

In the East it is usually associated with the Gift of Tears.

 

[MariaG]

The Pentescostal baptized by the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as confirmation. Confirmation is a one time thing that leaves an idelible mark on the soul like baptism. The pentescostal action would be better defined for a Catholic as an infussion of the Holy Spirit.

As someone who was NOT raised in a pentescostal church but started going to one with little exposure to these events, I was “slain in the spirit”. This happened even though I truly believed all the people falling down was an act.

Frankly, I am deeply offended to have an experience that I know was of God to be compared to Pavlov’s dog experiments.

While I am sure there are “manifestations of the Spirit” which are actually of the flesh, I think the ignorance of those wishing to write the whole thing off completely astounding.

 

[kepha1]

The Pentescostal baptized by the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as confirmation. Confirmation is a one time thing that leaves an idelible mark on the soul like baptism. The pentescostal action would be better defined for a Catholic as an infussion of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. We receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism. I prefer the word “release” instead of baptism or infussion, because the Holy Spirit is already present. Baptism does not require our informed consent, because original sin, or lack of grace, did not occur with our informed consent. Confession requires our informed consent, to get the absolution of sins we committed with our informed consent.

Confirmation is a public pronouncement of a free will decision to be partakers of the kingdom of God and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit in the sacramental sense. Baptismal vows are renewed. Emotions do not validate the sacrament, Jesus does. I think He elevated the bar mitzvah. Having an experience with the Holy Spirit, no matter how profound and intimate and emotional as it can be, is not a sacrament.

The release of the Holy Spirit does not conflict with Catholic theology. The past 4 Popes have approved the legitimate Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and it’s unfortunate that a few prayer groups have a tendency to model from Protestant errors. This is because of a lack of solid training on the part of the leaders, who may get their training from watching televangelists, and the severe shortage of charismatic priests. This shortage, I think, is the fault of over-enthused charismatics who treat priests as pagans until they read their books, or come to their prayer group. Our precious priests have been turned off.

 

[kepha1]

As someone who was NOT raised in a pentescostal church but started going to one with little exposure to these events, I was “slain in the spirit”. This happened even though I truly believed all the people falling down was an act.

It’s not necessarily an act, it’s cooperation and surrender, and nothing to be concerned about. It could be an act, but it could also be humility and submission to a kind of holy anesthesia which allows Jesus to perform surgery of the heart. Peer pressure? Who knows? It’s not for us to judge if it is an act. I prefer the term “overwelmed” as opposed to “slain”, and the person is conscious and aware during this experienece. No one can be overwelmed without their consent. It’s very hard to explain.

Frankly, I am deeply offended to have an experience that I know was of God to be compared to Pavlov’s dog experiments.

I hope others can see how easy it is to be offensive to our Pentacostal brothers and sisters when we negate their deep personal experience.

While I am sure there are “manifestations of the Spirit” which are actually of the flesh, I think the ignorance of those wishing to write the whole thing off completely astounding.

The Pope would agree, MariaG. The Charismatic renewal is not for everybody. It is but one of many expressions of faith we have on a very long and diverse banquet table.

kepha

 

[Todd_Easton]

The Holy Spirit is active even outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church.
John 3:8 says, “The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.” (Douay-Rheims)

We should rejoice in the work of the Spirit even when it is outside the visible Church.
Mark 9:38-40 says, “John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.’ But Jesus said, ‘Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us.’”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church touches upon the work of the Holy Spirit outside the visible Church:

818. “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”
819. "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”