Is the Knanaya Catholic Church considered a Sui Juris?

[Catechesis]

Hey, I really don’t want to turn this into a thread about endogamy, that’s not my purpose here but I’m simply curious to know what this communities official standing? Living in Chicago I’ve somehow made friends with a few Eastern Catholics, so far a Melkite, Syro Malabar, and a Knanaya. My girlfriend is a student at UT and actually goes to a Malankara Qurbana every now and than, we like to be as universal Catholics as possible . I recently went to my Knanaya friends wedding and the cultural experience was truly amazing. Speaking with my friend about his community and Church, it truly seems like these Knanaya folk have their own Eastern Catholic Church. Here are some of the points we discussed (he actually asked me to post this to see different perspectives).

Knanaya in India under Kottayam Archdiocese have their own:

• Bishops
• Priests
• Nuns
• Brothers
• Other Clergy
• 200,000 Faithful
• Parishes
• Foranes
• Schools
• Colleges
• Hospitals
• Numerous Other Services

The Archbishop of Kottayam is given special jurisdiction throughout the entire proper territory of the Syro Malabar Church. All of the above are called Knanaya Catholic, i.e St. Joseph’s Knanaya Catholic Church, the Knanaya Catholic Archbishop of Kottayam, Knanaya Catholic Priests, etc.

Knanaya Catholics under the St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese U.S have their own:

• Foranes (even if their is already a Syro Malabar Forane Church in the region!)
• Vicar General
• Priests
• Nuns
• Brothers
• Other Clergy
• 20 Parishes/Mission
• 20,000 Faithful
• Services

The most interesting part of this all is that when I speak to my Knanaya Catholic friend and I speak to my Syro Malabar Catholic friend they refer to each others Church as THEM and US, as if they’re apart of two different Churches! From talking to them both, its like these two communities or Churches, don’t even acknowledge the fact that they’re under the same Syro Malabar Catholic Church. My Knanaya friend even said that the Knanaya faithful in the U.S don’t even acknowledge Mar Jacob of the St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese Chicago, as their own bishop. They instead still see themselves as under Kottayam Archdiocese. He told me that even during there Qurbana at the part where they pray for their bishops, they state “Let us pray for our Archbishop Mar Matthew and our Bishop Mar Jacob”.

So the Knanaya Catholics seem to have their own particular everything, even titled as Knanaya Catholic XYZ_. It’s almost as if they completely administer on their own. They’re only tie to the Syro Malabar Church seems to be that their Archbishop is a member of the Syro Malabar synod. Everywhere the Knanaya diaspora goes, they set up a Knanaya Church or Mission, even if there is a Syro Malabar Church/Mission less than a mile away. Can somebody explain this conundrum and tell me what this community/churches official standing is?

 

[Thomas48]

Hey, I really don’t want to turn this into a thread about endogamy, that’s not my purpose here but I’m simply curious to know what this communities official standing? Living in Chicago I’ve somehow made friends with a few Eastern Catholics, so far a Melkite, Syro Malabar, and a Knanaya. My girlfriend is a student at UT and actually goes to a Malankara Qurbana every now and than, we like to be as universal Catholics as possible . I recently went to my Knanaya friends wedding and the cultural experience was truly amazing. Speaking with my friend about his community and Church, it truly seems like these Knanaya folk have their own Eastern Catholic Church. Here are some of the points we discussed (he actually asked me to post this to see different perspectives).

Knanaya in India under Kottayam Archdiocese have their own:

• Bishops
• Priests
• Nuns
• Brothers
• Other Clergy
• 200,000 Faithful
• Parishes
• Foranes
• Schools
• Colleges
• Hospitals
• Numerous Other Services

The Archbishop of Kottayam is given special jurisdiction throughout the entire proper territory of the Syro Malabar Church. All of the above are called Knanaya Catholic, i.e St. Joseph’s Knanaya Catholic Church, the Knanaya Catholic Archbishop of Kottayam, Knanaya Catholic Priests, etc.

Knanaya Catholics under the St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese U.S have their own:

• Foranes (even if their is already a Syro Malabar Forane Church in the region!)
• Vicar General
• Priests
• Nuns
• Brothers
• Other Clergy
• 20 Parishes/Mission
• 20,000 Faithful
• Services

The most interesting part of this all is that when I speak to my Knanaya Catholic friend and I speak to my Syro Malabar Catholic friend they refer to each others Church as THEM and US, as if they’re apart of two different Churches! From talking to them both, its like these two communities or Churches, don’t even acknowledge the fact that they’re under the same Syro Malabar Catholic Church. My Knanaya friend even said that the Knanaya faithful in the U.S don’t even acknowledge Mar Jacob of the St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese Chicago, as their own bishop. They instead still see themselves as under Kottayam Archdiocese. He told me that even during there Qurbana at the part where they pray for their bishops, they state “Let us pray for our Archbishop Mar Matthew and our Bishop Mar Jacob”.

So the Knanaya Catholics seem to have their own particular everything, even titled as Knanaya Catholic XYZ_. It’s almost as if they completely administer on their own. They’re only tie to the Syro Malabar Church seems to be that their Archbishop is a member of the Syro Malabar synod. Everywhere the Knanaya diaspora goes, they set up a Knanaya Church or Mission, even if there is a Syro Malabar Church/Mission less than a mile away. Can somebody explain this conundrum and tell me what this community/churches official standing is?

Hello Dear Friend,

It is nice to see that you have an interest in the Churches of India and the Knanaya Community. The question of is the Knanaya Community considered a Sui Juris Particular Church is a no and yes type of answer. As you explained with some points above, the community functions as if particular Church within a particular Church. We do have our own administration for everything and we act as if on our own authority but the fact remains that even though there are all these things titled “Knanaya”, the official standing of this group remains as a Christian Community. However, in my honest opinion the Knanaya Catholic Community is a Sui Juris Particular Church in all but writ and document.

So what is the reason behind this community not being a Sui Juris Church but still acting as if one? Well the community is allowed to act as one because they are considered a separate ethnic group than the St. Thomas Christians. Though we may act as if on our own, we are indeed an integral part of the Syro Malabar Church. Why has the Syro Malabar Church and Rome allowed this community to act in such a way, as if on there own for all these years? The answer is simply that sadly in many cases, Knanaya Christians revere more their identity than there Church. Meaning that, (especially decades earlier during the reforming of the Syro Malabar Church) there was always the fear and leverage that if the Knanaya people are not given what they want, they will go to there brethren and become Knanaya Jacobites under the Syriac Orthodox Church (in many cases this is exactly what happened). Also it is the fact that, these Knanaya Catholics also have the right to act is if on their own accord, their is written record of them doing exactly this since the 1500’s. However since the authority is the Syro Malabar Synod (in which we only have 2 bishops), they must continue to appease the Knanaya Catholic demands and here their will.

To the big question of why we are not a Sui Juris Church? The answer is simply endogamy, this tradition has been the communities biggest rewarding factor and biggest punishing factor. It has been rewarding in the fact that it has kept the community alive and vibrant for centuries to count. It has been punishing in the fact that endogamy, in my opinion is the one reason why the Knanaya Catholics have never and (probably will never) be elevated to a Sui Juris Church. I do believe in my most honest opinion, that if it were not for endogamy, the Knanaya Community would have been a Sui Juris Church decades ago. In just one example, look at the numerous Churches of the Byzantine Rite, many are for the most part based upon ethnic lines. Endogamy is such a controversial topic that Rome some what holds there nose to in the case of the Knanaya Community.

 

[Catechesis]

Hello Dear Friend,

It is nice to see that you have an interest in the Churches of India and the Knanaya Community. The question of is the Knanaya Community considered a Sui Juris Particular Church is a no and yes type of answer. As you explained with some points above, the community functions as if particular Church within a particular Church. We do have our own administration for everything and we act as if on our own authority but the fact remains that even though there are all these things titled “Knanaya”, the official standing of this group remains as a Christian Community. However, in my honest opinion the Knanaya Catholic Community is a Sui Juris Particular Church in all but writ and document.

So what is the reason behind this community not being a Sui Juris Church but still acting as if one? Well the community is allowed to act as one because they are considered a separate ethnic group than the St. Thomas Christians. Though we may act as if on our own, we are indeed an integral part of the Syro Malabar Church. Why has the Syro Malabar Church and Rome allowed this community to act in such a way, as if on there own for all these years? The answer is simply that sadly in many cases, Knanaya Christians revere more their identity than there Church. Meaning that, (especially decades earlier during the reforming of the Syro Malabar Church) there was always the fear and leverage that if the Knanaya people are not given what they want, they will go to there brethren and become Knanaya Jacobites under the Syriac Orthodox Church (in many cases this is exactly what happened). Also it is the fact that, these Knanaya Catholics also have the right to act is if on their own accord, their is written record of them doing exactly this since the 1500’s. However since the authority is the Syro Malabar Synod (in which we only have 2 bishops), they must continue to appease the Knanaya Catholic demands and here their will.

To the big question of why we are not a Sui Juris Church? The answer is simply endogamy, this tradition has been the communities biggest rewarding factor and biggest punishing factor. It has been rewarding in the fact that it has kept the community alive and vibrant for centuries to count. It has been punishing in the fact that endogamy, in my opinion is the one reason why the Knanaya Catholics have never and (probably will never) be elevated to a Sui Juris Church. I do believe in my most honest opinion, that if it were not for endogamy, the Knanaya Community would have been a Sui Juris Church decades ago. In just one example, look at the numerous Churches of the Byzantine Rite, many are for the most part based upon ethnic lines. Endogamy is such a controversial topic that Rome some what holds there nose to in the case of the Knanaya Community.

Thomas, as always thanks for the detailed reply! Your are truly a teacher! However what did you mean earlier when you stated that Knanaya Catholics joined the Orthodox side? Was this a common occurrence?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Thomas, as always thanks for the detailed reply! Your are truly a teacher! However what did you mean earlier when you stated that Knanaya Catholics joined the Orthodox side? Was this a common occurrence?

Knanaya Catholics are majority East Syriac (same as Syro-Malabar Liturgical Rites), however, there are a strong minority of Knanaya Catholics of the West Syriac Tradition (Malankara Syriac).

Knanaya Syriac Orthodox are only West Syriac.

The Churches get along really well, the laity intermarry, and many times the bishops of either church won’t mind the faithful attending the other since they are culturally and personally identical (some bishops will even recommend it wink, wink)

 

[Thomas48]

Knanaya Catholics are majority East Syriac (same as Syro-Malabar Liturgical Rites), however, there are a strong minority of Knanaya Catholics of the West Syriac Tradition (Malankara Syriac).

Knanaya Syriac Orthodox are only West Syriac.

The Churches get along really well, the laity intermarry, and many times the bishops of either church won’t mind the faithful attending the other since they are culturally and personally identical (some bishops will even recommend it wink, wink)

SyroMalankara is right, however there was a bit more that was going on during a specific time period for the Syrian Churches of Kerala. Basically during the period of 1900 to about the 1960’s, the Syrian Churches of Kerala were playing the hot potato game except replacing the potato with faithful. There were migrations back and forth and vice versa again between Syrian Christians attempting to consider which apostolic Church was considered valid. It was Malankara vs Jacobite vs Syro Malabar vs Marthoma and throw in the Pentecostals to the fold to get the whole deck of cards. This time period was truly turmoil in the eyes of many. I remember my grandmother stating that in the 1930’s priests of a different rite or a different apostolic Church completely would come to homes and literally propagandize and advertise the glories of this church, or rite, or this bishop, etc. This would often cause feuds for this reason and that reason and so on and so forth. This period of “church swap” was actually the reason why my grandmothers family on my mothers side converted from Knanaya Jacobite to Knanaya Catholic.

 

[Catechesis]

SyroMalankara is right, however there was a bit more that was going on during a specific time period for the Syrian Churches of Kerala. Basically during the period of 1900 to about the 1960’s, the Syrian Churches of Kerala were playing the hot potato game except replacing the potato with faithful. There were migrations back and forth and vice versa again between Syrian Christians attempting to consider which apostolic Church was considered valid. It was Malankara vs Jacobite vs Syro Malabar vs Marthoma and throw in the Pentecostals to the fold to get the whole deck of cards. This time period was truly turmoil in the eyes of many. I remember my grandmother stating that in the 1930’s priests of a different rite or a different apostolic Church completely would come to homes and literally propagandize and advertise the glories of this church, or rite, or this bishop, etc. This would often cause feuds for this reason and that reason and so on and so forth. This period of “church swap” was actually the reason why my grandmothers family on my mothers side converted from Knanaya Jacobite to Knanaya Catholic.

Thanks alot! Do you still have family that are Jacobite Knanaya? And Thomas, I dont mean to pry, I know its a controversial topic but what is your personal opinion on endogamy and the community? Also do the Knanaya celebrate the same exact East and West Syriac rite as their SMC and SOC counter parts or are there distinct Knanaya tweaks?

 

[Thomas48]

Thanks alot! Do you still have family that are Jacobite Knanaya? And Thomas, I dont mean to pry, I know its a controversial topic but what is your personal opinion on endogamy and the community? Also do the Knanaya celebrate the same exact East and West Syriac rite as their SMC and SOC counter parts or are there distinct Knanaya tweaks?

Yes I have many cousins who remained Knanaya Jacobite pronounced “Yachoba” in Kerala. I also have many cousins who turned to Knanaya Catholicism and joined the small West Syriac sector of Kottayam Archdiocese. And yes the East and West Syriac Rite is practiced the exact same way for Knanaya and their counterparts.

It’s quite alright to ask about endogamy, in the past on these forums I have posted about the communities opinion on endogamy, which is of course pro endogamous. In my personal opinion however, endogamy and exogamy are really not of high priority. I could care less what the community chooses to practice. What is important to me however, is that the communities traditions, customs, and identity are always maintained.

On a further note, the basis of endogamy has always been a wishy washy topic for me. In the past I always gave in to the bias and was a huge die hard believer in that this community is definetly of the pure unspoiled Jewish/Syrian origins claim. However with further analysis of my community and the opportunity of getting rid of the bias (which is tough in the case of your own community) I have come to beleive that the basis may be something different. Even with the many skeptics against the folk history of Knanaya migration, dna testing shows that Knanaya have a majority of great ties to the Middle East, still with some admixture of Indian genetics. In my most humble opinion backed by leasure research, I believe that the Knanaya could be descendants of the Black Jews of Kerala, with or without the migration from the Levant.

My personal theory: Knanaya come to India from the Middle East under Knai Thoma (this explains the Middle Eastern DNA). However upon arriving in Kerala, they eventually join and admix with the Black Jews of Kerala, (this explains the Indian genetics). This further explains the similarity of customs of the Black Jews and Knanayas noted by numerous scholars. Another interesting point to examine is that, scholars note a rift within the Black Jew community in the 14/15 hundreds which coincidently is the same time the Knanaya Churches start to emerge. Could it be that the Knanayas were the rifted group of Black Jews who could have joined the St. Thomas Christians? Of course this is just my opinion and petty theory.

 

[Catechesis]

Yes I have many cousins who remained Knanaya Jacobite pronounced “Yachoba” in Kerala. I also have many cousins who turned to Knanaya Catholicism and joined the small West Syriac sector of Kottayam Archdiocese. And yes the East and West Syriac Rite is practiced the exact same way for Knanaya and their counterparts.

It’s quite alright to ask about endogamy, in the past on these forums I have posted about the communities opinion on endogamy, which is of course pro endogamous. In my personal opinion however, endogamy and exogamy are really not of high priority. I could care less what the community chooses to practice. What is important to me however, is that the communities traditions, customs, and identity are always maintained.

On a further note, the basis of endogamy has always been a wishy washy topic for me. In the past I always gave in to the bias and was a huge die hard believer in that this community is definetly of the pure unspoiled Jewish/Syrian origins claim. However with further analysis of my community and the opportunity of getting rid of the bias (which is tough in the case of your own community) I have come to beleive that the basis may be something different. Even with the many skeptics against the folk history of Knanaya migration, dna testing shows that Knanaya have a majority of great ties to the Middle East, still with some admixture of Indian genetics. In my most humble opinion backed by leasure research, I believe that the Knanaya could be descendants of the Black Jews of Kerala, with or without the migration from the Levant.

My personal theory: Knanaya come to India from the Middle East under Knai Thoma (this explains the Middle Eastern DNA). However upon arriving in Kerala, they eventually join and admix with the Black Jews of Kerala, (this explains the Indian genetics). This further explains the similarity of customs of the Black Jews and Knanayas noted by numerous scholars. Another interesting point to examine is that, scholars note a rift within the Black Jew community in the 14/15 hundreds which coincidently is the same time the Knanaya Churches start to emerge. Could it be that the Knanayas were the rifted group of Black Jews who could have joined the St. Thomas Christians? Of course this is just my opinion and petty theory.

That’s very interesting how close the community is, even split among two apostolic traditions. And I did not know that the Knanaya celebrate the exact same rite I thought they had some specific traditions that were different. Thanks for the information Thomas. I wish I could comment on your theory and basis of endogamy but I don’t know enough about the community to do so but who are the Black Jews you mention?

 

[Thomas48]

That’s very interesting how close the community is, even split among two apostolic traditions. And I did not know that the Knanaya celebrate the exact same rite I thought they had some specific traditions that were different. Thanks for the information Thomas. I wish I could comment on your theory and basis of endogamy but I don’t know enough about the community to do so but who are the Black Jews you mention?

In a sense there are barely noticeable differences in the shared East Syriac rite. In example the Knanaya make use of the Syriac hymn Bar Mariyam at matrimonial Qurbanas, while Syro Malabar Catholics do not. This is perhaps the only notable liturgical difference. As for the Knanaya Jacobites, I am not sure but there could be many just in that fact that they are given more autonomy to act as their own Church under the SOC. However on a base level the liturgical practice for both Jacobite and Catholic and their counterparts are the same.

In Kerala, Jews started appearing as early as the first century. They migrated from the Middle East and became very prosperous, building many synagogues and establishing trade. These Jews became known as the Cochin Jews, Cochin being one of the main capital ports in Kerala. Later in the 15th century a group of European Jews settled in Kerala after persecution in Iberia. This group became known as the Paradesi Jews or “Foreign Jews”. In colonial times and among the communities Paradesi Jews were known as “White Jews” and Cochin Jews were known as “Black Jews”. Both communities were endogamous of each other and claimed superiority over the other. Even though their traditions and customs were similar they built seperate synogauges and practiced the faith apart from each other. In the 15 hundreds there was a rift amongst the Cochin Jews with half the community leaving (however to where or what is not noted). In my opinion this group could be the Knanaya. Scholars such as Jewish Prof. P.M Jussay have written entire journals on the signifcant similarities between the two communities. The following is the study.

Jussay, P.M. (1986) “The Wedding Songs of the Cochin Jews and of the Knanite Christians of Kerala: A Study in Comparison”. Symposium.

 

[Catechesis]

In a sense there are barely noticeable differences in the shared East Syriac rite. In example the Knanaya make use of the Syriac hymn Bar Mariyam at matrimonial Qurbanas, while Syro Malabar Catholics do not. This is perhaps the only notable liturgical difference. As for the Knanaya Jacobites, I am not sure but there could be many just in that fact that they are given more autonomy to act as their own Church under the SOC. However on a base level the liturgical practice for both Jacobite and Catholic and their counterparts are the same.

In Kerala, Jews started appearing as early as the first century. They migrated from the Middle East and became very prosperous, building many synagogues and establishing trade. These Jews became known as the Cochin Jews, Cochin being one of the main capital ports in Kerala. Later in the 15th century a group of European Jews settled in Kerala after persecution in Iberia. This group became known as the Paradesi Jews or “Foreign Jews”. In colonial times and among the communities Paradesi Jews were known as “White Jews” and Cochin Jews were known as “Black Jews”. Both communities were endogamous of each other and claimed superiority over the other. Even though their traditions and customs were similar they built seperate synogauges and practiced the faith apart from each other. In the 15 hundreds there was a rift amongst the Cochin Jews with half the community leaving (however to where or what is not noted). In my opinion this group could be the Knanaya. Scholars such as Jewish Prof. P.M Jussay have written entire journals on the signifcant similarities between the two communities. The following is the study.

Jussay, P.M. (1986) “The Wedding Songs of the Cochin Jews and of the Knanite Christians of Kerala: A Study in Comparison”. Symposium.

Thanks alot Thomas! I hope I can find a copy of that somewhere. I’m curious, as a lay person of the Knanaya Communtiy, do you still see problems between your community and the Syro Malabar Community? I ask because it was really striking to me the US and THEM view that my Syro Malabar and Knanaya friend expressed.

 

[SyroMalankara]

An interesting bit of inter-quarrel among Jews in Cochin at the time:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshuchrarim
Meshuchrarim are a Jewish community of freed slaves, often of mixed-race African-European descent, who accompanied Sephardic Jews in their immigration to India following the 16th-century expulsion from Spain. There all became known as the Paradesi Jews (as “foreigners” to India.[citation needed] They were also sometimes called the White Jews, for their European ancestry).

The descendants of the meshuchrarim were historically discriminated against in India by other White Jews. They were at the lowest of the Cochin Jewish informal caste ladder. The Paradesi came to use the Paradesi Synagogue; while they allowed the meshuchrarim as Jews to worship there, they had to sit in the back, could not become full members, and were excluded from the community’s endogamous marriage circle. At the same time, they were excluded by the Malabar Jews, the much larger community of Jews who had lived in Cochin for perhaps 1,000 years.

In the early 20th century, Abraham Barak Salem became one of the most prominent Cochin Jews.[1] A descendant of meshuchrarim, he was the first to earn a college degree and the first Cochin Jew of any sort to become a lawyer. He fought against the discrimination against his people. By the 1930s, social discrimination against the meshuchrarim began to diminish. Most Cochin Jews, including the meshuchrarim, emigrated to Israel by the mid-1950s.

A bit more about Abraham Barak Salem:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Barak_Salem

 

[Catechesis]

An interesting bit of inter-quarrel among Jews in Cochin at the time:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshuchrarim
Meshuchrarim are a Jewish community of freed slaves, often of mixed-race African-European descent, who accompanied Sephardic Jews in their immigration to India following the 16th-century expulsion from Spain. There all became known as the Paradesi Jews (as “foreigners” to India.[citation needed] They were also sometimes called the White Jews, for their European ancestry).

The descendants of the meshuchrarim were historically discriminated against in India by other White Jews. They were at the lowest of the Cochin Jewish informal caste ladder. The Paradesi came to use the Paradesi Synagogue; while they allowed the meshuchrarim as Jews to worship there, they had to sit in the back, could not become full members, and were excluded from the community’s endogamous marriage circle. At the same time, they were excluded by the Malabar Jews, the much larger community of Jews who had lived in Cochin for perhaps 1,000 years.

In the early 20th century, Abraham Barak Salem became one of the most prominent Cochin Jews.[1] A descendant of meshuchrarim, he was the first to earn a college degree and the first Cochin Jew of any sort to become a lawyer. He fought against the discrimination against his people. By the 1930s, social discrimination against the meshuchrarim began to diminish. Most Cochin Jews, including the meshuchrarim, emigrated to Israel by the mid-1950s.

A bit more about Abraham Barak Salem:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Barak_Salem

Thank you so much for these links and sorry for the really late reply! It was very cool to read into this, Kerala truly is a land of all the faiths. Are there alot of Jews still left in Kerala or have they all migrated away? Also SyroMalankara, have you seen the symmetry between the Cochin Jew culture and the Knanaya culture? Also do the St. Thomas Christians also have ties to the Jews of Kerala?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Are there alot of Jews still left in Kerala or have they all migrated away? Also SyroMalankara, have you seen the symmetry between the Cochin Jew culture and the Knanaya culture? Also do the St. Thomas Christians also have ties to the Jews of Kerala?

There are almost no Jews left in Kerala, perhaps less than a half dozen total, they have children in Israel and abroad.

As to symmetry between Kerala “native” Jews and Knanaya culture… honestly, no, I don’t see anything in particular that stands out that isn’t common to the wider St. Thomas Christian community.

There is no contact between the Christians and those who emigrated. There is much contact and friendly relationships between some of the few Jews who remain and the Christian communities.

 

[Thomas48]

There are almost no Jews left in Kerala, perhaps less than a half dozen total, they have children in Israel and abroad.

As to symmetry between Kerala “native” Jews and Knanaya culture… honestly, no, I don’t see anything in particular that stands out that isn’t common to the wider St. Thomas Christian community.

Dear Brother,

One must truly dig deep into the historical and cultural characteristics of Knanaya and Cochin Jew history in order to see the symmetries. Most of this history is not available through online resources but only through print articles and texts. The best example of this symmetry is seen through P.M Jussay’s (A Cochin Jew himself and a revered scholar in Kerala and amongst the Jewish community) text that I mentioned above. However it is almost impossible to get a copy of this text, unless you buy one in Kerala to which I honestly don’t know if they are even still in circulation anymore.

This being said, I urge you to take a look at this video link below. In this video a Knanaya historian (T.O Alias) uses authentic citations and source references from P.M Jussays analysis explaining the similarities of both communities. This was the only online source I saw that explains and cites any part of his text. Being a Knanaya myself, I was not even aware of some of the historical facets that are mentioned. Some interesting parts of the video that stuck out to me were the Cochin Jews were also called Thekkumbhagar (Southist) which is the native title of Knanaya Christians. Some other things were that the Knanaya and Cochin Jews seem to share weddings songs with the exact same wording in some examples, these songs are not found in any other communities. He also has many other sources in his presentation from Jews themselves comparing their traditions to that of the Knanaya.

youtube.com/watch?v=HYqdnbKCsgk

 

[SyroMalankara]

My friend, i will have to find a copy of this book. Based on the YouTube video, I would say much of the ‘evidence’ is very circumstantial and not proven with hard data. That some Europeans or scholar wrote that suchandsuch believe this or stated that is still secondary, but if concrete evidence like DNA tests or Carbon14 could be shown, it would be much stronger. In addition, the complication with the Jewish hypothesis in entirety, is that Knai Thomman himself is not said to be a Jew but a Chaldean/Syriac/Assyrian tradesman, right? So other than the two being non-Hindu and from the MidEast, what real connection would a native Jewish and foreign immigrant Chaldeo-Syriac community have?

Could a Syriac Christian community have split and accepted Judaism; potentially, but this would be unprecedented. Could a local Jewish community have split and accepted Assyrian Christianity - again, a rare occurrence but then this removes any direct connection to the Knai Thomman group that came directly from the Middle East.

 

[Thomas48]

My friend, i will have to find a copy of this book. Based on the YouTube video, I would say much of the ‘evidence’ is very circumstantial and not proven with hard data. That some Europeans or scholar wrote that suchandsuch believe this or stated that is still secondary, but if concrete evidence like DNA tests or Carbon14 could be shown, it would be much stronger. In addition, the complication with the Jewish hypothesis in entirety, is that Knai Thomman himself is not said to be a Jew but a Chaldean/Syriac/Assyrian tradesman, right? So other than the two being non-Hindu and from the MidEast, what real connection would a native Jewish and foreign immigrant Chaldeo-Syriac community have?

Could a Syriac Christian community have split and accepted Judaism; potentially, but this would be unprecedented. Could a local Jewish community have split and accepted Assyrian Christianity - again, a rare occurrence but then this removes any direct connection to the Knai Thomman group that came directly from the Middle East.

Dear Brother,

I understand your analysis of the data but there is one concept that seems to be overlooked. In the folk history of the Knanaya Community, they are said to Assyrian/Syriac Yudha Kristianis or Judeo-Christians (early Christians who still held onto many Jewish customs). I am sure you have seen this Jewish-Christian theme played over and over wherever Knanaya history is portrayed.

Straight from the Kottayam Archdiocese website:

“The Knanaya Community traces its origin from a group of Jewish-Christian emigrants from Southern Mesopotamia to the South Indian port of Cranganore in AD 345, who formed themselves into an endogamous community”

This is the connection that the Historian T.O Alias is attempting to establish in his presentation. He is stating that source material from Europeans scholars, explorers, other scholars, and even Cochin Jews themselves are describing Knanaya traditions to that of the native Jews.

What I am seeing from his presentation is a community from the Middle East who still retain some Jewish practices but present themselves as Assyrian Christians settling near and living side by side with the Cochin Jews of Kerala.

The historian continues to present certain points:

The Knanaya and Cochin Jews are both:
Called Thekumbhagar (Southists)
Called Charam Kettikal (Ash Tiers)
Both sing the same wedding and folk songs which no other communities claim
The three song examples he uses are: Ponanijeedum, Vazhvenna Vazhu, and Nallororslam (The Good Jerusalem)
Lived in the same vicinity

What I got from presentation was simply that the Knanaya and Cochin Jew community lived in the same area and for that reason shared many traditions and went through the same historical events. An example of this is seen when T.O Alias talks about the Portuguese burning the Cochin Jew Synagogue and at the same time burning the Knanaya Church in the area. But the most striking and uncontested (at least in my opinion) similarity is the folk songs, if Cochin Jews even say that the Knanaya folk songs are the same as theirs, there is no doubt that a great symmetry exists.

 

[Vico]

Hey, I really don’t want to turn this into a thread about endogamy, that’s not my purpose here but I’m simply curious to know what this communities official standing? Living in Chicago I’ve somehow made friends with a few Eastern Catholics, so far a Melkite, Syro Malabar, and a Knanaya. My girlfriend is a student at UT and actually goes to a Malankara Qurbana every now and than, we like to be as universal Catholics as possible . I recently went to my Knanaya friends wedding and the cultural experience was truly amazing. Speaking with my friend about his community and Church, it truly seems like these Knanaya folk have their own Eastern Catholic Church. Here are some of the points we discussed (he actually asked me to post this to see different perspectives).

Knanaya in India under Kottayam Archdiocese have their own:

• Bishops
• Priests
• Nuns
• Brothers
• Other Clergy
• 200,000 Faithful
• Parishes
• Foranes
• Schools
• Colleges
• Hospitals
• Numerous Other Services

The Archbishop of Kottayam is given special jurisdiction throughout the entire proper territory of the Syro Malabar Church. All of the above are called Knanaya Catholic, i.e St. Joseph’s Knanaya Catholic Church, the Knanaya Catholic Archbishop of Kottayam, Knanaya Catholic Priests, etc.

Knanaya Catholics under the St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese U.S have their own:

• Foranes (even if their is already a Syro Malabar Forane Church in the region!)
• Vicar General
• Priests
• Nuns
• Brothers
• Other Clergy
• 20 Parishes/Mission
• 20,000 Faithful
• Services

The most interesting part of this all is that when I speak to my Knanaya Catholic friend and I speak to my Syro Malabar Catholic friend they refer to each others Church as THEM and US, as if they’re apart of two different Churches! From talking to them both, its like these two communities or Churches, don’t even acknowledge the fact that they’re under the same Syro Malabar Catholic Church. My Knanaya friend even said that the Knanaya faithful in the U.S don’t even acknowledge Mar Jacob of the St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese Chicago, as their own bishop. They instead still see themselves as under Kottayam Archdiocese. He told me that even during there Qurbana at the part where they pray for their bishops, they state “Let us pray for our Archbishop Mar Matthew and our Bishop Mar Jacob”.

So the Knanaya Catholics seem to have their own particular everything, even titled as Knanaya Catholic XYZ_. It’s almost as if they completely administer on their own. They’re only tie to the Syro Malabar Church seems to be that their Archbishop is a member of the Syro Malabar synod. Everywhere the Knanaya diaspora goes, they set up a Knanaya Church or Mission, even if there is a Syro Malabar Church/Mission less than a mile away. Can somebody explain this conundrum and tell me what this community/churches official standing is?

The Syro Malabar Archepiscopal Catholic Church sui iuris has Knanaya*** personal parishes*** in North America with full endogamous rights like that of Kottayam Metropolitan Diocese. This was promulgated by Maran Mar George Alencherry, Mar Mathew Moolakkattu, and Mar Jacob Angadiath.

The official decree of the Syro Malabar Archepiscopal Church Synod is shown below from September 2014:

Decree:
22nd synod, 2nd session
Port. No. 1546
Personal parish for Knanaya Catholics​

(Consensus arrived during 22nd Synod 2014, Aug.18-30)
Personal Parish for Knanaya Catholics will have only Knanaya Catholics as its members. If a Knanaya catholic belonging to the Knanaya Parish enters in to marriage with a non-Knanaya partner, that non-Knanaya partner and the children from that marriage will not become member of the Knanaya Parish. But will remain member of the local non-Knanaya Syro Malabar Parish.

Signed : George Cardinal Alencherry-Major Archbishop, Syro-malabar Church
Mar Jacob Angadiath, Bishop of St.Thomas Syro-malabar Diocese of Chicago
Mar Mathew Moolakkat, Archbishop of Kottayam Metropolitan Diocese

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Reported By
Fr. Stephen J. Vettuvelil
Priest of Kottayam Archdiocese
MSP Seminary
S.H. Mount –PO
Kottayam-6
Date : 17-09-2014