Is the Nicene Creed Confused?

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NoelFitz

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I read in the Nicene Creed And in one Lord Jesus Christ, also I read And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and giver of life.

If Jesus is the one ‘Lord’, how can the Holy Spirit be the ‘Lord’?

I can see partial explanations all unsatisfactory. First both the Holy Spirit and Jesus are God hence there is one ‘Lord’, but the persons of the Trinity are really distinct.

Secondly ‘Kurios’ can mean different things, from God to Mister (Mr.), so ‘Kurios’ may be used in different ways, hence there can be two different distinct Lords.

Thirdly the Nicene Creed is a confused document, just as the camel is a horse designed by a committee. The creed is dependent on the decisions of both the First Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople, and tries to combine the decisions of both.

I would like clarification because definitely I am confused.

Thanks, and God bless.
 
Our God is One. “Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

All persons of the Trinity are the LORD.

The Creed is not confused.

Deacon Christopher
 
Jesus is Lord of all Lords.

(Rev 19:16 KJV) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
 
The title “LORD” is a translation of the Hebrew title “Adonai”. (There are other Hebrew titles that can also be translated as “lord” with lowercase letters, like the “mar” in “maranatha;” but that’s not what we’re talking about.)

Because it used the same vowels, “Adonai” was the spoken replacement for “YHWH” when Jewish people read the Scriptures, since they felt that YHWH was too holy a name to be spoken out loud on most occasions. Eventually people stopped writing YHWH in most places in the Bible, and just replaced it with Adonai from the beginning. But Adonai was still understood as meaning “I’m saying YHWH without actually saying that Name.”

So the Creed is saying that the Father is YHWH, the Son is YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is YHWH. Three Persons, one God named YHWH.
 
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I believe you’re reading a comma where there is none. It’s not in one “Lord,” Jesus Christ but rather in one “Lord Jesus Christ” as a complete title and name - there is one Christ who is part of the One Godhead.

I don’t see confusion in the document, just the reader.
 
Diaconia,
many thanks.
Your quote is the Sh’ma from the Hebrew Bible, and the Jews did not believe in the Trinity. The Catholic God is Trinitarian.
 
NoelFitz said:
Diaconia,
many thanks.
Your quote is the Sh’ma from the Hebrew Bible, and the Jews did not believe in the Trinity. The Catholic God is Trinitarian.
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And the quote he provided is as much for Catholics as it is for the Jews.
 
Yes, I know the Shema, and thought about writing it in Hebrew – but most of the persons on this board would not understand that.

Jews don’t believe in the Trinity because they don’t think Yeshua is the messiah. Christians understand who the Son of God is, and He is Lord of all.

Our God is One - the persons are distinct but not separate. What is true of any of the Three is true of all of them, save the distinctions that are absolutely unique to the Persons. That is, attributes of being a Son are unique to Jesus. Attributes of the Father are unique to Him. The Holy Spirit is the very breath of God that breathed out over the waters and brought forth life (ruach) during creation. Jews understand this is God’s breath, but they don’t understand that God’s breath is the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is True God, and was present from the beginning of Genesis, as mentioned above - all the way through Jesus’ ministry when He filled the Apostles with it to forgive sins in John 20:22.

Since the Holy Spirit is fully God - demonstrated as the ruach that moved over the waters, and the very breath of Jesus Himself, the Holy Spirit is Lord.
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Obviously Jesus is also Lord.

There is no confusion of the Creed.

Deacon Christopher
 
Thank you, Mrs Dizzyd.

There is one God in three Persons, but the three Persons are really distinct and equal in all thing.

St Thomas, in discussing if Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, notes that actions are due to God, but are assigned to different Persons, e.g. the Father is the Creator, the Son the Redeemer and the Holy Spirit the Sanctifier.

I read part of the url you suggest. [I like the pun about problems being ‘conceptual’ (LOL)].

In Catholic theology, we understand the persons of the Blessed Trinity subsisting within the inner life of God to be truly distinct relationally, but not as a matter of essence, or nature.

To be clear, in the one God there are three really distinct Persons.
 
Mintaka,
Thanks.
We are wandering from the point.

Incidentally Maranatha is not Hebrew, but Aramaic.

The early Christians used Greek, and their Scripture was not the Hebrew Bible (HB) , but the Septuagint, which is in Greek, not Hebrew, hence the books in the Catholic Old Testament differ from the Jewish Bible.

In the LXX and the NT ‘Lord’ is a translation of ‘Kurios’, which can have various meanings, as I wrote before.
 
NoelFitz said:
In Catholic theology, we understand the persons of the Blessed Trinity subsisting within the inner life of God to be truly distinct relationally, but not as a matter of essence, or nature .

To be clear, in the one God there are three really distinct Persons.
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You missed an important word: truly distinct relationally

How do we understand that distinction? 3 does not equal 1. The true distinction lies in how the three relate to each other. The Nicene Creed acknowledges each of the relational differences. As others have said, the Creed is not confused. The reader is confused.
 
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Maybe the Athanasian Creed is clearer regarding this subject:
"And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.
(…)
So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. "
 
Cor_ad_Cor,
your reply is brilliant, Sincerest thanks. For years I had a problem with ‘Lord Jesus Christ’, and discussed it with many scholars, and never got a satisfactory reply. I had given up expecting an answer, it was just another ‘mystery of our religion’.

Bur with simplicity and clarity you have removed a veil.

Also you wrote I don’t see confusion in the document, just the reader.
Again I agree with you, I am confused, but now I have one less issue to be confused about.

[As a fan of Blessed J H Newman I liked your name since Cor ad Cor Loquitur was his motto. But I see the Dominican emblem with your name. Is there a story here?]
 
Wesrock said:
And the quote he provided is as much for Catholics as it is for the Jews.
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I see in the Bible
Jesus replied, “The first is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. (NABRE Mk 12:29,30).

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with your whole heart, and with your whole being, and with your whole strength (Deu 6:4,5).

So it is clear that God can be considered Lord, for both Jews (HB) and Christians (NT). But that is not the issue.
 
NoelFitz said:
the persons of the Trinity are really distinct.
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The distinction is the relations which does not import composition. The three divine persons are never apart. Catechism:
252 The Church uses
  • (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
  • (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
  • (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
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Thanks, Raph, for another brilliant reply.
I am grateful to all who contributed to this thread, in which all the replies were thoughtful and respectful, illustrating Catholic theology and its best - faith seeking understanding (fides quaerens intellectum, St Anselm).
 
The underlying Greek text of the Creed uses Lord as an adjective describing the Holy Spirit. Like removing the comma from the English translation.

εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ Κύριον καὶ Ζωοποιόν

The noun would use the article τὸν with Κύριον.
 
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NoelFitz said:
[As a fan of Blessed J H Newman I liked your name since Cor ad Cor Loquitur was his motto. But I see the Dominican emblem with your name. Is there a story here?]
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I will send you a private message with the explanation.
 
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