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AJV
Guest
As an Eastern Christian, surely you are aware of similar proleptic prayers in most, if not all, the liturgies, e.g. the Cherubic hymn in the Byzantine?
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Fr. Brendan:
In a way, I like your reply…
I’m accustomed to the version from the American Missal (TAC), which takes some of what I suspect you object to out of the Offertory, leaving in what I suspect David really wants (the humility before God, the beauty of the language and the clear recognition that this simple Bread & Wine will become the Body & Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ or, as the Maronites say in their liturgy, “Christ our God”).
One of these days, I’ll lay my hands on an American Missal, and I’ll type in the Offertory so you can see what I mean. The Anglican (English) Missal is available on the Internet, but it tends to read more like the Tridentine than you or I would like.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Gregory_I
Guest
I apologize if I offended anyone, but if I perceive someone to be ignorant (not stupid) or failing to hear the plain meaning of what I say, it is bound to be a little frustrating.
How can it possibly be insulting to say someone is not listening? THat is ridiculous, it’s not an attack, it’s an observation; and failure to listen is not a defect, it’s a mistake.
ByzCAth is no idiot. I have read his other posts. I don’t understand this ridiculous over sensitivity…
Pray for me, a sinner.
Mary does.
How can it possibly be insulting to say someone is not listening? THat is ridiculous, it’s not an attack, it’s an observation; and failure to listen is not a defect, it’s a mistake.
ByzCAth is no idiot. I have read his other posts. I don’t understand this ridiculous over sensitivity…
Pray for me, a sinner.
Mary does.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Brother David:
I’m sorry the situation with Gregory blew up. Something about sitting behind a keyboard & computer screen causes most of us to have difficulty remembering that we are talking with human beings, let alone brothers & sisters in Christ. ans, I think these discussion sometimes I think we allow things to get a little too overheated for our own good or our edification or that of the brothers & sisters who might be reading our posts.
I’m sometimes guilty of this too, so I have to include myself.
I suspect part of the reason Pope John Paul II/Cardinal Ratzinger & now Pope Benedict XVI/Cardinal Levada are working so hard to make sure the deal sticks with the TAC (I can’t go into detail beyond this) is to show that the TLM/EF/Gregorian rite be beautifully translated into English and other languages, and that the congregation can fully participate in the Mass without losing any of the Sacred “Mystery” of the Divine Liturgy.
And, Since a lot of this dispute comes from within the American Church, congregations of Anglican-Catholics, submitted to and obedient to the Pope being brought in in this century, would remind American Catholics of the diversity of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Actually, I’ve become quite fond of the Maronite Divine Liturgy which, if I understand correctly, is the one on which the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is based - See Eparchy of St. Maron of Brooklyn - Liturgy. When I can, I attend - I love the singing and the feeling of being impelled toward the altar, towards our Lord & Heaven. If that’s what St. John Chrysostom experienced when he participated in the Anaphora of the Apostles, I can see why he used this as the basis for the Liturgy you use.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
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Gregory:I apologize if I offended anyone, but if I perceive someone to be ignorant (not stupid) or failing to hear the plain meaning of what I say, it is bound to be a little frustrating.
How can it possibly be insulting to say someone is not listening? THat is ridiculous, it’s not an attack, it’s an observation; and failure to listen is not a defect, it’s a mistake.
ByzCAth is no idiot. I have read his other posts. I don’t understand this ridiculous over sensitivity…
Pray for me, a sinner.
Mary does.
I will pray for you, for I am a sinner as well.
Frustrated or not, none of us are allowed to accuse a brother in Christ of not listening, not without darn good evidence. Now, maybe you’ve been allowed to claim people weren’t listening when you were frustrated because you failed to communicate your points before, or when people didn’t agree with you, but that doesn’t fly here. Same for the, “I apologize if I offended anyone.” followed by the rest the above post.
As Christians, our standard isn’t whether something is insulting or not, but whether something is charitable, or edifying, or not. Or standard is, “Is that how I would want to be treated myself if I didn’t understand my brother or disagreed with my brother?” Ask yourself how would you feel if the roles were reversed and, after you tried hard to understand your brother, and to keep your disagreements civil, the first line of a long post from him, addressed to you was, “YOU AREN’T LISTENING!” and then, When another brother tried to call him, he did a CLINTONIAN APOLOGY followed by a double down…
Gregory, this isn’t a place to vent our emotions. This is a place for us to learn, and, once we’ve learned something, to teach others. and, This is also a place to evangelize and to organize.
When Teresa Schindler-Schiavo was dying, we organized a letter writing campaign out of her - We had 1,000 people writing letters all over the country, Congresspersons, the Papal Nuncio, The Pope, you name it - Some were writing 3 & 4 letters/day. When Terry died, we turned our attention to other cases. One we couldn’t help (the woman’s granddaughter) had gotten too much of a jump on us. The other 2 we saved.
When Pope John Paul II died, the Press fixed their canons hard on Cardinal Ratzinger. We had a BIG Arinze PARTY which caused members of the Press to think Arinze was “THE MAN”, they went after Cardinal Arinze like dogs after a bone and left Cardinal Ratzinger alone. One of the Biggest “Head-Fakes” in history.
Those were only possible because of what this was - When people decide the standards should be whatever works in the Secular World, we don’t get to do those things, because we’re too busy dealing with STUFF LIKE THIS.
Please, don’t make me deal with any more of this.
Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
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Filioque
Guest
Well yes and no. The prayer referred to (Sucipe Sancte Pater) uses the term Hostia Immaculata, which forms an ascending Epeklesis, the term hosita in Latin is victim. While the english term for the Altar Bread is customarily “host” the prayer is not referring to the bread, but Who and what the bread will become.
As the Divine Liturgy in East and West, in whichever approved Rite, properly celebrated, it is offered is the very same mystical sacrifice, I find arguments about which is superior or inferior to be quite unfortunate. It is the same Jesus, and as it is He who is the primary celebrent at each Mass/Liturgy, it is of the same infinite value, be it celebrated by the Pope, a Patriarch, Bishop, or a humble missionary priest on in a grass hut.
Even with my own prejudices, and discomfort with the OF, I know it is Jesus who through His priesthood, which He shares with the Church through the sacerdotal priesthood, who makes it all possible.
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Traditional_Ang
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Filioque:
Well said.
I suspect some of your misgivings about the Ordinary Form will disappear if you saw the new translation of it.
usccb.org/romanmissal/
Click on The Order of Mass under the red missal - It’s a pdf file of about 53 pages.
I really like what the translators did with Canon 4 which is based on an old Egyptian rite (I don’t know which one, but I’d much rather hear that than Canon 2 which is based on a Canon that was written up by Hippolytus). It’s a crying shame the first translation back in 1970 wasn’t done this faithfully or well.
I know I comment on the English translation of the Gregorian that I’ve read and heard. Although the English Bishop was trying to convince his English hearers of the “Horrors of Catholicism”, his translation was faithful, and beautiful. It’s almost like the guy couldn’t help it.
Imagine that you lived in a monastery, and woke up to this every morning - Follow the Links:
prayerfoundation.org/christ_pantocrator_sinai_icon.htm
touregypt.net/featurestories/catherines2-1.htm
katapi.org.uk/Art/Icon-ChristPantocrator.html
One reason these eyes almost lock into yours is that they just may be the eyes of Christ. It is generally believed one of the first Icons made after the Shroud of Turin was retrieved from the wall in Edessa was the Icon of Christ Pantocrator which can now be found at St. Catherine’s Monastery in the Sinai. It has been proven the Iconographer who “wrote”/“prayed” that icon made a nearly exact copy of the face of Christ.
shroudofturin4journalists.com/pantocrator.htm
factsplusfacts.com/resources/pantocrator01.htm
For your devotionals, you might want to study our Lord’s face. The thing with the icon at St. Catherine’s is that He beckins, “You who are weary and heavy, come to me and I will give you rest. My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Goodnight.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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bkovacs
Guest
A picture is worth a thousand words. Does the Novus Ordo Mass that you attend today resemble any one of these Ancient Liturgies. The Roman one in the photo is also called the Extra-Ordinary form.
img193.imageshack.us/img193/7433/liturgies.th.jpg
img193.imageshack.us/img193/7433/liturgies.th.jpg
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pnewton
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I have found the opposite to be true. Most of the pictures here have been no better than meaningless rhetoric. In the same way that anecdotes have no bearing on theology, so pictures are often nothing but undocumented anecdotes, in color. The picture you posted, for example, has no bearing on the validity of the Mass.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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And that is when the pictures have not been doctored. We did have a case a while ago where the pictures posted to “prove” liturgical dance were obvisious fakes.
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Filioque
Guest
While I would much rather attend an Eastern Liturgy or a TLM in the it’s glory, full choir, beautiful vestments and Church, clergy who can preach well, I must remember that all this, while organic developments which the Church under the guidance of the Holy Ghost did add over the years like precious jewels, is not the essence of the Mass, but rather an ornate frame that surrounds the mysteries given us by Christ Jesus.A picture is worth a thousand words. Does the Novus Ordo Mass that you attend today resemble any one of these Ancient Liturgies. The Roman one in the photo is also called the Extra-Ordinary form.
img193.imageshack.us/img193/7433/liturgies.th.jpg
Rather than seeing a grand conspiracy, what I have been able to construct, (and hopefully it is in an historical perspective, based on not only the SSPX Seminary training I received, but also a careful read of the major, and a few minor scholars of the Liturgical Movement from the late 1800’s to just prior to Vatican II) I’ve not spent the money on Abp. Bugnini’s book, so I can’t say that my reading is as comprehensive as some would like it to be.
It would appear to my eyes, and mind that what happened was a youthful enthusiasm gone in some places and times awry. The rediscovery, in both Western and Eastern Monastaries, and former Monastic Western Libraries, (Oxford, and Cambridge) of ancient documents long forgotten. The relative peace that allowed scholars to re-open the early liturgical chapters of the Church was much like setting children free in a candy shop. What happened we can reconstruct through both books by the renound Dom Garanger, and Msgr. Duchense (some of who’s books were placed on the Index) Frs. Gambler and Bouyer had some wild ideas after reading about the liturgical praxis of the early Church, and Fr. Jungmann was a brilliant scholar who I don’t think even considered how his great work would be distorted by some.
There seems to have been a rush by some, (I don’t find any evil Masonic plot here) to re-introduce ancient practices, sometimes out of context with the original practice, and at other times without a real investigation, or forgetting the rationale for the changes to the Liturgy that gave us what we had developed to at the eve of the Second Vatican Council.
As breifly alluded to earlier, Scholars like Fr. Louis Bouyer, and Fr. Klaus Gambler both were early advocates of this re-introduction of much earlier practices, however they soon saw that isolated from their historical context they could be hijacked by those who did have a modernist influence. A review of such books as “The Mass of the Future” and some of Fr. Ellard’s works show a sincire desire to make the Mass come alive for the people, however dated and comical as the photos now appear to us. Fr. Ellard, branded as a “liberal” by many who assist at the TLM wrote a wonderful little book entitled, “Say what you mean; Mean what you say.” In which he advocated the vernacular for responses, and both explained and encouraged the retention of the response, “And with your spirit” as well as other liturgical words and functions that are being restored under the Pontificate of Pope Benedict, and called for in Pope John Paul II’nds document on Authentic Liturgy.
I fear that aside from the urban legends that attack, with little evidence Abp. Bugnini, a trusted expert of Pope Pius XII, as being a Mason, or other ad hominem attacks, that it is not so much the Missal of Pope Paul VI that is defective, or Vatican II which departs from the Catholic Faith, but rather those who would distort them to their own means, either on the far left or the far right. Attacks need to be made at the real problems. Those (in my opinion) are the rejection of authentic authority in the Pope and those Bishops who transmit the Faith, and practices of the Church with him, versus those who either depart from the Church either by deciding to modify the rites of the Church and ignore the rubrics, or to deny that the newer Rites (properly observed) have any place at all in the Church. Demanding that the rubrics are followed in any given Rite, is a far better thing than taking one’s and leaving the sand box, promoting strife, and more division.
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DavidPalm
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I think that the single objection offered by Frbrendan was answered well by others and that leaves a lot of material standing that is quite obviously fuller and more precise. This sort of side-by-side comparison can be extremely enlightening. What was taken out? What was modified, according to what criteria? Another interesting article along these lines, again in that “rad-trad” rag Homiletic and Pastoral Review (kidding
) is “Was Dom Gueranger Right After All?”The Pauline rite is certainly valid. Here in China, it’s all I have available to me so I assist and am grateful for the graces. I’m grateful too for the fortitude of our Holy Father who has released the Gregorian rite from its exile. The high altar remains intact here at the Shanghai cathedral and, please God, it will be used again.
As the OP has said that his original posting is sufficiently covered, I’ll leave it there.
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AJV
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Small nitpick: The anaphora of St. Basil never did materialize as a Eucharistic Prayer. One of these days, I’ll get round to typing the Latin version that was proposed before it was nixed. Many books have mixed up this iformation as thus assume that Canon 4 is the descendant of St. Basil when actually it is not. There was a project once with ICEL and their alternative Eucharistic Prayers that tried to revive a St. Basil version for use alongside the current 4.
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