Is the "present" technically not observable?

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AveOTheotokos

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I was reading this thread about a third gravitational wave being detected and began pondering the fact that the colliding black holes referenced in the article are 3 billion light years away, so what we see and observe is really an event that happened 3 billion years in the past.

This got me thinking about the fact that every part of reality that we experience is technically, in some way, only an observation of the past. For example, the light of the sun takes approx. 8 minutes to reach our eyes, so any observation of the sun is really an observation of what occurred 8 minutes ago. We can see lightning strike, but hear the thunder later depending on the distance from us. Even physical stimulation of our senses and nerves rely on chemical reactions and electrical impulses to occur between the time of the stimulation and our experience of the situation.

Basically, all things observed, detected, and experienced within the created physical universe are past events, with their age varying based on their distance from us and the speed at which the information reaches us and is processed and/or comprehended. No matter how close an event, time still passes between the event’s occurrence and our observation or experience of it.

To clarify, I am not trying to imply that the present does not exist, but I am pondering the following questions:
  • Is there anything in the present that is observable in “real time”, or does the entirety of observed human experience of creation consist only of past events?
  • Is it plausible that human consciousness and self awareness is the only thing anyone ever experiences of the “present”, or is even that technically just an awareness of “past” information that leads us to the conclusion of our existence?
  • When we contemplate God’s presence (the state or fact of existing, occurring, or being present in a place or thing) in prayer, is the deep sense of calm, peace, and consolation that people can sometimes experience possibly the result of being one of the few/only times we experience the “present”?
My brain now hurts trying to wrap itself around and wrestle with these ideas, though I would like to point out that these questions have no negative impact on my faith, but rather serve to inspire in me an ever deeper sense of awe and wonder of God and the enormity of creation.

:hmmm::confused: :hypno:
 
I find this a fascinating topic. And you are pondering very good questions.

Strictly speaking, it isn’t possible for us to observe anything in the world in “real time” because it takes several milliseconds for our senses to transfer their signals to our brain, and several more milliseconds for our brain to process those signals and produce the knowledge of an observation. In a way, we are all just the tiniest bit behind the “present” which is around us. Of course, practically, this is just as good as “real time”, because we observe and sense quickly enough to interact with almost everything around us.

But what about the “present” inside our own mind? That’s very interesting. I think it would be valid to define the “present” for each individual person to be that moment in which he is currently thinking. That “present” is ever so slightly behind the “present” of the material world, but to that person, it is the moment in which he is capable of acting and directing his own thoughts.

After we die, I think we will finally be capable of sharing the same “present” with other beings, since we will no longer be limited by the time delay introduced by matter.
 
Another thought to add to the mind boggling-ness:

Because every individual human being is a unique biological creation that would theoretically observe/experience something at a unique rate of time (because of the unique biological processing time for that individual) compared to any other human being, is it then plausible that several people in the same area observing/experiencing the “same” thing are technically each observing/experiencing different points in the “past” than every other person observing the “same” thing and therefore, every human being is the only human being in all of creation that is currently observing/experiencing any particular thing?

Basically:
  • Is every person experiencing a unique point in the past based on their own unique distance from the present of a particular observable/experiential thing or event?
  • Does God’s existence in the eternal present (in all moments, past, present, and future) mean He is the only one who actually experiences the “present” as it is?
  • While all of creation can only observe/experience the “past” unless uniquely granted the ability to experience the true “present” by the grace of God?
  • Do we all observe and experience the eternal present of God from a point in the “past” that is completely unique only to us?
  • Is it possible that God’s will for us to have a personal relationship with him comes to fruition in the fact that we exist and experience Him completely separate from all the rest of creation because of our unique observation of and distance from the “past” of His eternal “present”, while at the same time He is sustaining and experiencing all of creation eternally and simultaneously by His existence in and willing of the eternal “present”?
This brings another random thought into my head: Is the bi-location of certain saints possibly the result of the saint being temporarily granted special graces from God to exist in a unique true “present”, therefore becoming a “past” observable/experienced by different people in different locations and at different distances and in effect causing the observers to experience the saint simultaneously in their experienced “present”?
 
Another pondering… I have frequently seen advice given about the importance of living in the present. Dwelling on, worrying about, or longing for the past or future seems to bring people much discontent, sadness, and depression.

The benefits of living in the “here and now” and focusing on fully experiencing the present is advice often given as a method of attaining and maintaining mental and spiritual health.

Is the reason this works because the further into and more time we spend focusing on the past and the future, the further we distance ourselves from the place where God is: the present?

Do people frequently find peace, consolation, and happiness in living in the “here and now” because that is where we are closest to God?
 
Since we are on the new forum now, I figured I would update this with my results of pondering this…

And the result is that I am still pondering and equally as mind boggled 😵
 
Ahh, but your observation is in your present. So, to your senses, it is a present event.
 
dshix said:
Of course, practically, this is just as good as “real time”, because we observe and sense quickly enough to interact with almost everything around us.
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However, many things are closer to what would be termed the ‘present’
I just tried to swat a fly. The fly detected the air movement, somersaulted into the air, and flew away before I could perceive it was gone.

The next time, I swatted at the likely escape route instead of the fly itself…and nailed it.

Is the “present” further ahead for some individuals than others?
 
AveOTheotokos said:
Is the reason this works because the further into and more time we spend focusing on the past and the future, the further we distance ourselves from the place where God is: the present?
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Our psyche plays a part in being in the moment. Especially if we have traumatic, painful, suppressed memories.
my 2
Pain from our past causes anxieties about the future and keeps us from experiencing the moment. This is a very sublime phenomenon. Most people don’t know this is happening to them and almost everyone suffers from it to some degree.
If you are able to be present, I think it is because you are more removed from past pain you experience subconsciously consequently less fearful of the future. You won’t feel the pain you won’t feel the fear. The more you can feel the past pain the more you sense the fear.
 
AveOTheotokos said:
Another pondering… I have frequently seen advice given about the importance of living in the present. Dwelling on, worrying about, or longing for the past or future seems to bring people much discontent, sadness, and depression.

The benefits of living in the “here and now” and focusing on fully experiencing the present is advice often given as a method of attaining and maintaining mental and spiritual health.
Click to expand...
I was going to say …THAT AS YOU , YOURSELF , POINT OUT … this isn’t really how our own minds work anyway.

You are correct to put " living in the here and now " in quotation marks. It’s a good sound bite , a nice simple slogan. But under any sort of examination it falls apart.
AveOTheotokos said:
Dwelling on, worrying about, or longing for the past or future seems to bring people much discontent, sadness, and depression.
Click to expand...
Lots of people live hand -to -mouth , just like, or very similar too, the beasts of the field. And typically they avoid thinking about the future , even the immediate future , because the most likely outcomes are too painful to bare thinking about . How many actually envy that ? Are people beating down the doors to get into Zambia or North Korea?
AveOTheotokos said:
The benefits of living in the “here and now” and focusing on fully experiencing the present is advice often given as a method of attaining and maintaining mental and spiritual health.
Click to expand...
It is advice often given by Communists and Nihilists. Granted , not all who argue this line are professed Communists or Nihilists , but glossing over , or passing in silence over, the fact that this line has been a very a popular line among Communists and Nihilists isn’t exactly a faithful adherence to truth either.
AveOTheotokos said:
Is the reason this works
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Many , if not all , who live hand -to-mouth existences would say that it doesn’t work. That it is the sort of fiction cooked up by people who conflate volunteering for a soup kitchen , with being depend on , and at the mercy of , the soup kitchen. They are not the same thing.
AveOTheotokos said:
because the further into and more time we spend focusing on the past and the future, the further we distance ourselves from the place where God is: the present?
Click to expand...
In the post just above it , You suggested that God isn’t subject to linear time. You suggested that God ( in Heaven ? ) exists in a place where past, present , and future , ARE ALL THE SAME TIME , and so ( ? ) you wrapped the word " Present " repeatedly in quotation marks.

My suspicion ? You should go right on wrapping the word "present " in quotation marks. In my opinion, you were on the right track there.
 
My Priest about 20 years ago used to immerse himself in the teachings of Carmelite contemplatives. One of the teachings used to be hung on a banner at the church. “At every moment do what love requires” To them peace is found in the moment. Negative thoughts emotions situation and people can cause the loss of peace. Don’t let anything take your peace away. Whatever does take it away, get away from it, according to them it’s very important to spiritual growth. if you are at peace you are in the moment.
 
This thread is making my neurons smart.
This thread has made my neurons smart.
This thread could possibly make my neurons smart more if I keep reading.
Ouch.

I think the present is just a rough way of keeping track of where you “are.” Wherever that may be. I would prefer to be present 100 Billion light years removed from here to witness X and then jump 100 billion light years back to where I was, or was it “am now” (i forget) to witness it again. Time seems like such a pain. The angels could better answers such questions, I think.

Sorry for interrupting.
 
Benadam said:
How do you write that sentence in the present tense?
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That is precisely my point.

As I have suggested, perhaps in Heaven the past , present, and future are all the same time. But, presumably, this isn’t Heaven.

In this place , in this context, if we could actually dwell in the present, why then would we need God ?

I’m pretty sure I have read at least 50 times, in Catholic sources , that one of the attributes of God is that He is the ONLY being sufficient to himself, / ever-present.
ALL others need another , thus , ever other-present.

— Anyway, whenever I encounter someone trying to convince me of this , " live in the present " buiseness, I heartily wish they would quit trying to convince me, and instead try to convince the Bill collectors.

Perhaps, preferably, while holding their breath. 🙂
 
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Maybe a more extreme type of fear and it’s effect on the psyche can demonstrate how it works. Lets see if I can get this right.

PTSD takes us right out of the moment and puts us whenever a life threatening intensely fearful experience stored in our memory was.

When we experience intense emotion especially fear caused when life is threatened it becomes a memory that is recalled involuntarily. This takes us out of our present environment into a past environment.The experience becomes distorted by the past in the measure that the past experience is intensely emotional and life threatening. Good for animals but not for humans. The effect on our memory is more subtle as the emotions stored in it are less emotional and traumatic. This is a characteristic of fallen memory imho.
 
The present is a continuously moving thing. It is always relative to the past and the future.
 
what is the present? An increment of time is the present? The present is not just an increment of time.
the present is contingent on being. The present is the place one is Being.
 
That’s all a person ever has - the moment.
Nowness would be an aspect of the spirit.
The spirit moves towards and away from God.
It does so through its actions, loving or not.
The past is set and the future, open to new choice.

Physical (name removed by moderator)ut is coming at us from all directions.
And some of it billions of years old.
What do you say? Is there a present physical moment outside the eternal vision of God’s all-inclusive Now?
 
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