Is The Punishment Eternal?

[Dan_Parker]

EnterCanaan:
TO EVER means until the last day and night on this earth when it eventually is destroyed in the lake of fire, then on that day when everything is destroyed that is the end of TO EVER, there is no more, that is the last day. There is no Forever, only TO ever, which signifies an end.

Dan:
I don’t understand what you mean by “to-ever” as opposed to “for-ever”. For the moment, lets look at all the verses where the **SAME **Greek phrase is found EIS TOUS AIWNAS TOUS AIWNAS as see how it is rendered in the KJV. There are plenty of references below with reference to God and Jesus. Do you apply this same logic to how long Jesus will live?

1. 
   *]KJV Galatians 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
   *]KJV Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
   *]KJV 1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
   *]KJV 2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
   *]KJV Hebrews 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
   *]KJV 1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
   *]KJV Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
   *]KJV Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
   *] 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
   *]KJV Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
   *]KJV Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
   *]KJV Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
   *]KJV Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
   *]KJV Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
   *]KJV Revelation 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
   *]KJV Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
   *]KJV Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[EnterCanaan]

Good scripture, awesome. There is one little error,

KJV Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[this would imply that even after heaven and earth are destroyed, and new heaven and new earth are created, that satan would still be in hell suffering. Does this make sense? satan is sin, and God will erase sin on the last day, that is a contradiction]

This verse is correctly translated as:

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night -]for /-][to]ever and ever.*

‘to’ the last day and night]

*This verse has been mistranslated, where it reads 'for’ever and ever, it should read 'to’ever and ever. Implying duration through a time, as opposed to infinite time.

*Root from (Greek) : εἰς
Transliteration: eis
Part of Speech: preposition.
Definitions: into, unto, to, towards, for, among.
Lexicon: eis, a Prep. Governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among. ie: duration through a time; of the time in which a thing is done.

I know this is a rehash of what i previously posted, but you seem to have missed the point, Because you have like 20 verses in the context of God being eternal, yes that is so, then out of context you have Rev 20:10 which is speaking about the end of time, which is ‘to’ ever. meaning it has an end because our LORD conquered death.

I have no problem with the verses saying our Lord is forever and ever, this is true, He is the alpha and the omega, he is from everlasting to everlasting, that is perfect, however death, hell, satan, and sin is not forever, it is ‘to’ever meaning that God will wipe it out on the last day, the last day signifies an end, if there was no last day, then you would be correct in saying forever, however the lake of fire serves one purpose, to destroy this universe and everything in it. EVERYTHING, that will be destroyed has an end, that is to’ever’ meaning after that there is no more day and night, so far as we can understand it at least.

you correctly compared scripture to scripture, however there is such a thing as context, When discussing the end of time, we must look at the other verses which speak of the end and destruction and hell and death and darkness and then you will understand that all of said verses concerning death, sin satan and evil has an end.

Lets think about this, if there was never a day of judgment, then there would never be final day and night, and if there was never a day of judgment we would continue to have day and night cycle for infinity. And we know this is impossible because there IS going to be a day of Judgment. Now this argument concernes this earth, and this earth is sin, and sin is to be destroyed in the lake of fire, hence forth no more earth, no more sin, no more satan, the end.

your other verses are quite accurate yet out of context, true you found many verses with the same word, but the context is different. 99 percent of them are about our Lord being forever, and the one verse is about the end of time. out of context.

In rev 20:10 it is not one word, it is a preposition and a noun. it is two words, it can either be read as “for ever” or “to ever” Two seperate words, and so this has been mistranslated for a number of reasons, one because the idea of the lake of fire and the parabolic language used was not understood at the time, they did not compare scripture to scripture when translating thus they see the word as either to or for and in the context of ever and ever it seemed right to them to make it for ever or how it is written as forever. That is innacurate. We know our Lord conqueres death, thus death has an end.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Good scripture, awesome. There is one little error,

KJV Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[this would imply that even after heaven and earth are destroyed, and new heaven and new earth are created, that satan would still be in hell suffering. Does this make sense? satan is sin, and God will erase sin on the last day, that is a contradiction]

This verse is correctly translated as:

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night -]for /-][to]ever and ever.*

‘to’ the last day and night]

*This verse has been mistranslated, where it reads 'for’ever and ever, it should read 'to’ever and ever. Implying duration through a time, as opposed to infinite time.

*Root from (Greek) : εἰς
Transliteration: eis
Part of Speech: preposition.
Definitions: into, unto, to, towards, for, among.
Lexicon: eis, a Prep. Governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among. ie: duration through a time; of the time in which a thing is done.

I know this is a rehash of what i previously posted, but you seem to have missed the point, Because you have like 20 verses in the context of God being eternal, yes that is so, then out of context you have Rev 20:10 which is speaking about the end of time, which is ‘to’ ever. meaning it has an end because our LORD conquered death.

I have no problem with the verses saying our Lord is forever and ever, this is true, He is the alpha and the omega, he is from everlasting to everlasting, that is perfect, however death, hell, satan, and sin is not forever, it is ‘to’ever meaning that God will wipe it out on the last day, the last day signifies an end, if there was no last day, then you would be correct in saying forever, however the lake of fire serves one purpose, to destroy this universe and everything in it. EVERYTHING, that will be destroyed has an end, that is to’ever’ meaning after that there is no more day and night, so far as we can understand it at least.

you correctly compared scripture to scripture, however there is such a thing as context, When discussing the end of time, we must look at the other verses which speak of the end and destruction and hell and death and darkness and then you will understand that all of said verses concerning death, sin satan and evil has an end.

Lets think about this, if there was never a day of judgment, then there would never be final day and night, and if there was never a day of judgment we would continue to have day and night cycle for infinity. And we know this is impossible because there IS going to be a day of Judgment. Now this argument concernes this earth, and this earth is sin, and sin is to be destroyed in the lake of fire, hence forth no more earth, no more sin, no more satan, the end.

your other verses are quite accurate yet out of context, true you found many verses with the same word, but the context is different. 99 percent of them are about our Lord being forever, and the one verse is about the end of time. out of context.

In rev 20:10 it is not one word, it is a preposition and a noun. it is two words, it can either be read as “for ever” or “to ever” Two seperate words, and so this has been mistranslated for a number of reasons, one because the idea of the lake of fire and the parabolic language used was not understood at the time, they did not compare scripture to scripture when translating thus they see the word as either to or for and in the context of ever and ever it seemed right to them to make it for ever or how it is written as forever. That is innacurate. We know our Lord conqueres death, thus death has an end.

I listed all those verses because I thought you were saying that a particular Greek phrase should be To-Ever and not For-Ever because of the preposition EIS. That is the evidence you gave for its mistranslation. That same word is used in all those verses.

So now, is your evidence “context” that some of these passages with the same exact phrase should be To-Ever and some should be For-Ever? If that is the case, then what is the reason for listing the glosses for the word EIS?

As for Revelation 20:10, one of the sense for the Greek **BASANIZW **(torment) is to suffer an ignominous death. Therefore there is no reason to assume that there is conscious torment going on.

KJV Ezekiel 32:30 There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their **shame = BASANO **with them that go down to the pit.

 

[EnterCanaan]

I listed all those verses because I thought you were saying that a particular Greek phrase should be To-Ever and not For-Ever because of the preposition EIS. That is the evidence you gave for its mistranslation. That same word is used in all those verses.

So now, is your evidence “context” that some of these passages with the same exact phrase should be To-Ever and some should be For-Ever? If that is the case, then what is the reason for listing the glosses for the word EIS?

As for Revelation 20:10, one of the sense for the Greek **BASANIZW **(torment) is to suffer an ignominous death. Therefore there is no reason to assume that there is conscious torment going on.

KJV Ezekiel 32:30 There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their **shame = BASANO **with them that go down to the pit.

I see what you did with torment, and it is a good lesson for everybody here to realize the power of comparing scripture to scripture, in this case torment does not mean what we would think it would mean, and infact means something completely different, it means shame and the shame of being seperated from God is a torment to the unsaved in so many poetic words.

of course this is impossible because when your dead your dead, you feel no shame, or torment for that matter, yet it is parabolic language to help us get a better grasp of the meaning. thank you for sharing that

no i didnt say all the for ever are mistranslated, i said Rev 20:10 for ever is mistranslated, it is out of context. In the correct context it would be to ever because every other verse we read concering this subject teaches us that on the day of judgment it is destroyed, so it is a contradiction because the verse teaches it will continue on for time with out end, instead of the end of time, which is a finite point in the plan of Gods timeline.

That is the contradiction, and it is amazing that this one preposition can be translated as either for or to, and so we see that indeed God is perfect, though the human translators are human, but God is clearly teaching He conquers death and destroys it the last day, not that it will continue on indefinately.

That is why this one verse out of all the others is mistranslated, and what an incredibly potent and important verse it is. Rest assured that God will destroy sin in the lake of fire, now we have comlete harmony.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I see what you did with torment, and it is a good lesson for everybody here to realize the power of comparing scripture to scripture, in this case torment does not mean what we would think it would mean, and infact means something completely different, it means shame and the shame of being seperated from God is a torment to the unsaved in so many poetic words.

of course this is impossible because when your dead your dead, you feel no shame, or torment for that matter, yet it is parabolic language to help us get a better grasp of the meaning. thank you for sharing that

no i didnt say all the for ever are mistranslated, i said Rev 20:10 for ever is mistranslated, it is out of context. In the correct context it would be to ever because every other verse we read concering this subject teaches us that on the day of judgment it is destroyed, so it is a contradiction because the verse teaches it will continue on for time with out end, instead of the end of time, which is a finite point in the plan of Gods timeline.

That is the contradiction, and it is amazing that this one preposition can be translated as either for or to, and so we see that indeed God is perfect, though the human translators are human, but God is clearly teaching He conquers death and destroys it the last day, not that it will continue on indefinately.

That is why this one verse out of all the others is mistranslated, and what an incredibly potent and important verse it is. Rest assured that God will destroy sin in the lake of fire, now we have comlete harmony.

Have you ever seen a bible render Rev 20:10 the way you propose?

 

[EnterCanaan]

Have you ever seen a bible render Rev 20:10 the way you propose?

To answer your question, no, there is no bible that translated the passage the way i propose. I know that Rev 20:10 is out of context because it is not in harmony with the rest of the passages speaking about death, and realizing it is out of harmony, realizing that this particular verse teaches a doctrine that is contrary to the rest of the biblical doctrine, I was pursuaded by logic to figure out why. I went to original language, found the strong # and saw that indeed, it could be read both ways, however there is only ONE correct reading of it, and when you read it as “day and night to ever and ever” it is in harmony, because then the passage suggests an end of time, where if you read it the other way “day and night for ever and ever” then this passage suggests that suffering continues on indefinately, and we know from the rest of the bible, that is an impossiblity. So take a leap of faith and consider why two biblcal doctrines can be contrary in the word of God. Is it God that messed up, no He spoke and men were moved to write by way of Holy spirit, however the translators are human and can stumble, We all know there are many translation errors throughout the bible, and this is one of them. And so now it fits the rest of the biblical doctrines that have been put forth. That is about all i can say Dan because I believe I adequietly explained it.

If you have a deeper more profound question please don’t hesitate to ask, we can find truth together bro,
God bless