Is the universe inherently flawed? If so, did we cause this?

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A friend of mine at school told me a very strange theory he had. He said that the Garden of Eden was probably in a different universe, because this universe is “inherently flawed” (as in, entropy and decay occur), but Eden was perfect. He said that being expelled from the garden after the Fall would be God placing Adam and Eve in this universe. He also thinks this because, if we take the more common idea that the Garden and the Fall were after dinosaurs, then why did dinosaurs kill each other before the Fall? This is supposedly flawed and could not have happened in a perfect pre-Fall universe.

But the question I have is whether this is the wrong understanding. Is the perfection of Eden only to the extent of humanity’s relationship with God, or was everything physically perfect too? Did human sin cause the universe’s perceived imperfections? And if it did, how did imperfections occur before humanity existed?
 
laircy said:
A friend of mine at school told me a very strange theory he had. He said that the Garden of Eden was probably in a different universe, because this universe is “inherently flawed” (as in, entropy and decay occur), but Eden was perfect. He said that being expelled from the garden after the Fall would be God placing Adam and Eve in this universe. He also thinks this because, if we take the more common idea that the Garden and the Fall were after dinosaurs, then why did dinosaurs kill each other before the Fall? This is supposedly flawed and could not have happened in a perfect pre-Fall universe.

But the question I have is whether this is the wrong understanding. Is the perfection of Eden only to the extent of humanity’s relationship with God, or was everything physically perfect too? Did human sin cause the universe’s perceived imperfections? And if it did, how did imperfections occur before humanity existed?
Click to expand...
Interesting questions. I often liked to think that the world before the Fall of Adam and Eve was something after the fashion of this description of the messianic kingdom from Isaiah 11: 6-8:
“Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat;
The calf and the young lion shall browse together,
with a little child to guide them.
The cow and the bear shall graze,
together their young shall lie down;
the lion shall eat hay like the ox.
The baby shall play by the viper’s den,
and the child lay his hand on the adder’s lair.”

But since you mention the dinosaurs which lived most likely before Adam and Eve and which we are told that some of them killed and ate other ones, the idea that carnivorous animals are only a result of the sin of Adam and Eve may not be the case. St Thomas Aquinas who lived in the 13th century thought it unreasonable to think that by Adam and Eve’s sin the natures of animals were changed as if the natures of those who now it is to devour the flesh of others would then have lived on herbs. However, he does hold that in the state of innocence man had mastership over all the animals and they obeyed him of their own accord as in the present state some domestic animals do. Part of the punishment of Adam and Eve’s sin is the disobedience and non-subjection of many of the animals towards human beings now especially the wild animals.

Now, Holy Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church tell us that the Fall had universal effects. The CCC#400 says “harmony with creation is broken, visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.”
Cursed is the ground* because of you!
In toil you shall eat its yield
all the days of your life.
Thorns and thistles it shall bear for you,
and you shall eat the grass of the field. (Gen. 3: 17-18).

“Because of man, creation is now subject to its bondage to decay” (CCC#400, Rom 8:21).

So, there may have been carnivorous animals in the state of innocence. But these animals would have been subject to Adam and Eve and not have harmed them. Because of the Fall, the ground has been cursed, creation is now subject to its bondage to decay, the animals are disobedient to us, we return to the earth from which we came “for thou are dust and to dust thou shall return.” In a word, the whole physical creation was turned for the worse in one way or another. It’s a different world from the original creation and the Garden of Eden where God placed Adam and Eve.
 
Richca said:
Interesting questions. I often liked to think that the world before the Fall of Adam and Eve was something after the fashion of this description of the messianic kingdom from Isaiah 11: 6-8:
“Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat;
The calf and the young lion shall browse together,
with a little child to guide them.
The cow and the bear shall graze,
together their young shall lie down;
the lion shall eat hay like the ox.
The baby shall play by the viper’s den,
and the child lay his hand on the adder’s lair.”

But since you mention the dinosaurs which lived most likely before Adam and Eve and which we are told that some of them killed and ate other ones, the idea that carnivorous animals are only a result of the sin of Adam and Eve may not be the case. St Thomas Aquinas who lived in the 13th century thought it unreasonable to think that by Adam and Eve’s sin the natures of animals were changed as if the natures of those who now it is to devour the flesh of others would then have lived on herbs. However, he does hold that in the state of innocence man had mastership over all the animals and they obeyed him of their own accord as in the present state some domestic animals do. Part of the punishment of Adam and Eve’s sin is the disobedience and non-subjection of many of the animals towards human beings now especially the wild animals.

Now, Holy Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church tell us that the Fall had universal effects. The CCC#400 says “harmony with creation is broken, visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.”
Cursed is the ground* because of you!
In toil you shall eat its yield
all the days of your life.
Thorns and thistles it shall bear for you,
and you shall eat the grass of the field. (Gen. 3: 17-18).

“Because of man, creation is now subject to its bondage to decay” (CCC#400, Rom 8:21).

So, there may have been carnivorous animals in the state of innocence. But these animals would have been subject to Adam and Eve and not have harmed them. Because of the Fall, the ground has been cursed, creation is now subject to its bondage to decay, the animals are disobedient to us, we return to the earth from which we came “for thou are dust and to dust thou shall return.” In a word, the whole physical creation was turned for the worse in one way or another. It’s a different world from the original creation and the Garden of Eden where God placed Adam and Eve.
Click to expand...
I should add here that even though creation has become alien and hostile to man because of sin, creation is still good, the world is good as we read in Genesis 1: 31 “God looked at everything he had made, and found it very good.”
 
The universe that we observe is a dangerous place for life. Is that a flaw…I don’t think so. If current prevailing theory proves to be factual, this universe will return to the singularity from which it derived, eliminating all life forms wherever they may be.
Is that a flaw…again, I don’t think so. One thing I feel fairly certain about is that we have/had nothing to do with it.
 
I’ve mentally accepted the same idea as one possibility that the Universe was completely rearranged by Original Sin from the big bang. For instance, that Matter decay was also a consequence of Adam & Eve’s Original Sin. That the difference between rewriting the pre-fall history and creating a new Universe was meaningless.

The big drawback to this, as was pointed out, is that you tend to start thinking of the creation as not being Good. That Good only applied to the pre-fall universe. One must understand that Catholic Teaching is very clear that the Good nature of the universe is still in effect.

I also think it possible that Eden may have been a place of safety and that the human domination that God commands is basically a calling to tame the beasts with the power that God gave man initially over the animals, but lost.

The difficulty here is that when in Genesis Chap 1:30 we have no carnivores.

“Genesis Chap 1:30 - and to all the wild animals, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the earth, I give all the green plants for food. And so it happened.”

We see in this statement that the only food even for “wild animals” were plants yet, we have such strong evidence for carnivores.

There seems to be problems any way you turn. So, the answer is that these were stories that give us some specific theological points that the Church has identified and taught; yet, can’t really take as fully eye witness type stories that say everything just as it happened. Consequently, when trying to derive ideas other than those that are part of the Teaching of the Catholic Church the initial Genesis Chapters are very unhelpful. Therefore, I accept that there are many ways the reality may have gone and we will need to reach heaven to get the whole story, but the specific teachings are solid and we should concentrate our minds there rather than making sci-fi stories of crossing between universes.

Maybe this is a blessing that when you try to draw out seemingly new facts the Bible is not very clear, even contradictory, on what it doesn’t want to teach.
 
What Points am I referring to? These:
The Church has established at least these 23 points on the initial 3 chapters of Genesis. These supplied by our Forum Elder, username “buffalo”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…9&postcount=12

The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
 
For me the state of Adam and Eve is a really hard concept for me to get my head around.
How would Adam and Eve get to heaven if they didn’t die?
 
laircy said:
A friend of mine at school told me a very strange theory he had. He said that the Garden of Eden was probably in a different universe, because this universe is “inherently flawed” (as in, entropy and decay occur), but Eden was perfect. He said that being expelled from the garden after the Fall would be God placing Adam and Eve in this universe. He also thinks this because, if we take the more common idea that the Garden and the Fall were after dinosaurs, then why did dinosaurs kill each other before the Fall? This is supposedly flawed and could not have happened in a perfect pre-Fall universe.

But the question I have is whether this is the wrong understanding. Is the perfection of Eden only to the extent of humanity’s relationship with God, or was everything physically perfect too? Did human sin cause the universe’s perceived imperfections? And if it did, how did imperfections occur before humanity existed?
Click to expand...
This is pretty much my view of the Fall also and it is implied by many Doctors if you look closely at how they understood “aging/death” and “sex” which both existed even in Eden if operating very differently.
However, as noted, we do not seem to have a perfectly consistent account as others have noted that it seems intrinsic to creation that many creatures may only survive by killing others.

There does seem to be a metaphysical link between the heart of mankind and the physical well-being of the created world. When man rebelled and became disintegrated in himself the same happened in the universe.

However I think it can be argued that the Fallen angels also somehow corrupted the created universe even before us. They are after-all responsible for its harmonious functioning even at the level of “being.”

Perhaps this is responsible for the existence of creatures that can only survive by killing others even before the arrival of Adam and Eve?

Did not the Creator originally intend that the Lion and Lamb lie down in peace?
 
laircy said:
A friend of mine at school told me a very strange theory he had. He said that the Garden of Eden was probably in a different universe, because this universe is “inherently flawed” (as in, entropy and decay occur), but Eden was perfect. He said that being expelled from the garden after the Fall would be God placing Adam and Eve in this universe. He also thinks this because, if we take the more common idea that the Garden and the Fall were after dinosaurs, then why did dinosaurs kill each other before the Fall? This is supposedly flawed and could not have happened in a perfect pre-Fall universe.

But the question I have is whether this is the wrong understanding. Is the perfection of Eden only to the extent of humanity’s relationship with God, or was everything physically perfect too? Did human sin cause the universe’s perceived imperfections? And if it did, how did imperfections occur before humanity existed?
Click to expand...
Adam and Eve were certainly placed in a garden in this world, not in some other world. And their sin certainly had some effect on the natural order of nature. It would only be speculation as to the exact extent. Blue has a nice, idealic theory above and one can certainly think that it may have been that way. Revelation and the teaching of the Church are silent on these matters.

Linus2nd
 
First - I do not believe the universe is, in anyway, flawed. If a person does not understand the science behind the natural order of the universe, the flaw lies with the person - not the universe. We are just scratching the surface of our understanding of this field.

Second - The creation story of Genesis is complicated - if you read, you will see there are actually two creations stories (one has been labeled “priestly” and the other more towards the layman. Per Catholic teaching (and re-affirmed by our current Pope), the Bible is a book of Faith, not a book of science. While it is both enlightening and enjoyable to converse on Biblical topics, it should be done so cautiously, and (hopefully) with (name removed by moderator)ut from a learned theologian (perhaps your priest).

One of the follow-up threads to this questions highlights the potential problems. The verse cited from Isaiah (“the lamb lies with the lion”) is probably NOT a literal expectation, but a reference to regional tribes/communities associated with those animals. For example (just an example - not trying to be specific) - if the lion were to be the peoples of Islam and the lamb the peoples of Christ Jesus, then the scripture is telling us that, in the end there will be peace between the two peoples. The same symbolical meaning/representation is applicable to the other examples in this verse. (This was a topic from a Bible study led by my Diocesan Priest).

In conclusion, our tradition teaches us that man is inherently fallible, but we are still filled with the divine “spark” (the “breath of life”) that makes us unique in the animal kingdom of this planet.
God bless and peace be with you!
 
oldcelt said:
The universe that we observe is a dangerous place for life. Is that a flaw…I don’t think so. If current prevailing theory proves to be factual, this universe will return to the singularity from which it derived, eliminating all life forms wherever they may be.
Is that a flaw…again, I don’t think so. One thing I feel fairly certain about is that we have/had nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...
👍 The universe is not flawed because its limitations are inevitable but there is no doubt that this planet is adversely affected by human activity even without considering the bloodstained history of homo sapiens.
 
There is a basic mistake in calling the Garden of Eden or the pre-Fall world perfect. The most that was said about it in Genesis 1:31 was that it was “very good.” Very good for what? God’s own purposes according to His Divine Plan. His divine plan should eventually lead to perfection for our planet, but this planet, according to scientists, has existed for billions of years without visible evidence of anything perfect. Even with human progress, both physically and spiritually over the millennia, we are still subject to catastrophes such as earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, asteroid impacts, etc. These existed both before and after the Fall.

Your friend’s strange theory that other universes besides our own exist has no scientific evidence, and it seems to be a product of wishful thinking. If you believe the universe itself is inherently flawed, it brings you uncomfortably close to the error of Manicheism, which believed all physical matter was evil.
 
slbolfing said:
First - I do not believe the universe is, in anyway, flawed. If a person does not understand the science behind the natural order of the universe, the flaw lies with the person - not the universe. We are just scratching the surface of our understanding of this field.

Second - The creation story of Genesis is complicated - if you read, you will see there are actually two creations stories (one has been labeled “priestly” and the other more towards the layman. Per Catholic teaching (and re-affirmed by our current Pope), the Bible is a book of Faith, not a book of science. While it is both enlightening and enjoyable to converse on Biblical topics, it should be done so cautiously, and (hopefully) with (name removed by moderator)ut from a learned theologian (perhaps your priest).

One of the follow-up threads to this questions highlights the potential problems. The verse cited from Isaiah (“the lamb lies with the lion”) is probably NOT a literal expectation, but a reference to regional tribes/communities associated with those animals. For example (just an example - not trying to be specific) - if the lion were to be the peoples of Islam and the lamb the peoples of Christ Jesus, then the scripture is telling us that, in the end there will be peace between the two peoples. The same symbolical meaning/representation is applicable to the other examples in this verse. (This was a topic from a Bible study led by my Diocesan Priest).

In conclusion, our tradition teaches us that man is inherently fallible, but we are still filled with the divine “spark” (the “breath of life”) that makes us unique in the animal kingdom of this planet.
God bless and peace be with you!
Click to expand...
Gold_Star said:
There is a basic mistake in calling the Garden of Eden or the pre-Fall world perfect. The most that was said about it in Genesis 1:31 was that it was “very good.” Very good for what? God’s own purposes according to His Divine Plan. His divine plan should eventually lead to perfection for our planet, but this planet, according to scientists, has existed for billions of years without visible evidence of anything perfect. Even with human progress, both physically and spiritually over the millennia, we are still subject to catastrophes such as earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, asteroid impacts, etc. These existed both before and after the Fall.

Your friend’s strange theory that other universes besides our own exist has no scientific evidence, and it seems to be a product of wishful thinking. If you believe the universe itself is inherently flawed, it brings you uncomfortably close to the error of Manicheism, which believed all physical matter was evil.
Click to expand...
I agree, my first inclination in response to his proposition was that perhaps the universe only appears flawed to us because we are the fallen ones who do not have perfect understanding of the wisdom of it.
 
tonyrey said:
👍 The universe is not flawed because its limitations are inevitable but there is no doubt that this planet is adversely affected by human activity even without considering the bloodstained history of homo sapiens.
Click to expand...
That wouldn’t be the teaching of the Catholic Church.
“Fall” by definition implies loss of a due perfection/freedom that is we know should be in place.

Apparantly “death” was not inevitable in God’s original plan - though clearly it is now.
 
laircy said:
A friend of mine at school told me a very strange theory he had. He said that the Garden of Eden was probably in a different universe, because this universe is “inherently flawed” (as in, entropy and decay occur), but Eden was perfect. He said that being expelled from the garden after the Fall would be God placing Adam and Eve in this universe. He also thinks this because, if we take the more common idea that the Garden and the Fall were after dinosaurs, then why did dinosaurs kill each other before the Fall? This is supposedly flawed and could not have happened in a perfect pre-Fall universe.

But the question I have is whether this is the wrong understanding. Is the perfection of Eden only to the extent of humanity’s relationship with God, or was everything physically perfect too? Did human sin cause the universe’s perceived imperfections? And if it did, how did imperfections occur before humanity existed?
Click to expand...
I think the garden of Eden had more to do with Adam and Eve’s immortality. I don’t ever think the universe was an ideally perfect place. Adam and Eve were not perfect either. You see Adam and Eve’s fall did not begin with eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge between good and evil. Adam and Eve’s fall began with their decision to disobey God; therefore they were inherently flawed in their spirit. God didn’t intend Adam and Eve to disobey him, however, he knew they would. That’s why He purposed His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ from the beginning. It’s not that Jesus is an afterthought in the fall of Adam. He is in the forethought of God, from the very beginning He purposed The Truth for the redemption of Adam.
 
Sacred_Heart said:
I think the garden of Eden had more to do with Adam and Eve’s immortality. I don’t ever think the universe was an ideally perfect place. Adam and Eve were not perfect either. You see Adam and Eve’s fall did not begin with eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge between good and evil. Adam and Eve’s fall began with their decision to disobey God; therefore they were inherently flawed in their spirit. God didn’t intend Adam and Eve to disobey him, however, he knew they would. That’s why He purposed His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ from the beginning. It’s not that Jesus is an afterthought in the fall of Adam. He is in the forethought of God, from the very beginning He purposed The Truth for the redemption of Adam.
Click to expand...
Well its an interesting take but certainly not the usual one.

Humans are not angels who can sin in their heart without reference to an “incarnated” human action. Even when we do sin in our armchairs it is by reason of an imagined action.

So I am not so sure that I can see a concrete “decision to disobey God” in Genesis before the actual eating. They are usually regarded as one and the same, like body and soul. If one is lacking the human reality simply isn’t fully there.

While God may have purposed the Incarnation of Christ from the beginning that does not mean it could only come about by the “happy fault” of the Fall. (The “necessary sin of Adam” is really a poetic exaggeration in the Exsultet rather than an accepted theology methinks).

A number of Doctors have held that there is no intrinsic reason why Christ would not have been incarnated into Eden had our parents not Fallen.
 
laircy said:
A friend of mine at school told me a very strange theory he had. He said that the Garden of Eden was probably in a different universe, because this universe is “inherently flawed” (as in, entropy and decay occur), but Eden was perfect. He said that being expelled from the garden after the Fall would be God placing Adam and Eve in this universe. He also thinks this because, if we take the more common idea that the Garden and the Fall were after dinosaurs, then why did dinosaurs kill each other before the Fall? This is supposedly flawed and could not have happened in a perfect pre-Fall universe.

But the question I have is whether this is the wrong understanding. Is the perfection of Eden only to the extent of humanity’s relationship with God, or was everything physically perfect too? Did human sin cause the universe’s perceived imperfections? And if it did, how did imperfections occur before humanity existed?
Click to expand...
So how did Adam and Eve get here from a different universe?
 
Jesus_Lives said:
So how did Adam and Eve get here from a different universe?
Click to expand...
“Different Universe” does not need to be so literally understood as to mean a different planet.

Like the “new heavens and the new earth” at the final resurrection it is still basically the same one we live in now but transformed in some spiritual way we cannot comprehend
(it would have to be to support so many souls over the millennia I suppose).

Likewise the relationship of Eden and post-Fall.
Some incomprehensible transformation for the worse somehow took place that affected the very nature of the universe (and human nature)…which does not necessarily mean “earth” today is not the same “earth” of Eden. Neither does that mean we can still somehow find “Eden” in some hidden jungle of present-day Iran/Iraq.

We are “cast out” and an angel with a flaming sword guards the way back.
This means, we can never “find it” again - a re-transformation is impossible until the last day.
 
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