Is the war in Iraq an unjust war?

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The Church believes that achieving what you can, even if that is less than ideal, is legitimate. So the answer to this question is: yes.
As I quoted above, the Church has explained the proper application and constraints on the principle of “limiting the harm” with regards to voting.
The key is that limiting evil is better than accomplishing nothing useful whatever.
The ‘key’ of not endoring moral relativism is that complicency with evil is not rewarded by God. Since single party rule has had no measurable effect on abortion (rates actually fell faster under Clinton and ‘abortion friendly’ Oregon is a national leader in terms of reduced rates), which principle should we assume applies here?
You do??? I thought you lived in California.
Protestant thinking perhaps? I stated “self described Christians”. However, to be specific, I live in the largest density of Catholics in the United States.
As shown above, the Church recognizes the acceptability of achieving less than perfect results.
Are your a Catholic Politician with a well known pro life record? It seems to me that you are trying to stretch a specific exception to apply to yourself. I quoted the Church, in a Doctrinal Note addressed to the Lay Faithful on the subject of voting, expressly disagreeing.

However, if your emphasis is on pragmatism and results, how do you explain the utter lack of measurable success from your approach?
 
You appear to trying to apply the concept of “limiting the harm”. But, with regards to voting, the Church appears to disagree:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

The document lists 9 broad examples. Given that this list is given specific emphasis, after expressly constraining the concept of “limiting the harm”, how could this be interpretted as a list that is ‘open to compromise’?
With respect SoCalRC, I believe you are misinterpreting the document…
In this context “limiting the harm”], it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals. The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church’s social doctrine does not exhaust one’s responsibility towards the common good. Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives him this task, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.
When political activity comes up against moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation, the Catholic commitment becomes more evident and laden with responsibility. In the face of fundamental and inalienable ethical demands, Christians must recognize that what is at stake is the essence of the moral law, which concerns the integral good of the human person. This is the case with laws concerning…
A political party is not the same as a “political program.” We absolutely should not support any laws, propositions, etc. that are contrary to Church teaching. However, in the context of “limiting harm” this document does not tell me that I can not make a choice of political parties, none of which follow Church teaching to the letter.
 
You appear to trying to apply the concept of “limiting the harm”. But, with regards to voting, the Church appears to disagree:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html
I guess this is as perfect an example of how our interpretations of the same document diverge. The section you quote from this document to make your point is the same section I would quote to make mine.

*"{a politician} could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality».
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    *In this context, it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience  does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which  contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals.*"
You focussed on the second paragraph while ignoring the first (in fact you didn’t even include the first one in your citation) but they must be interpreted with respect to one another and not in isolation (in the document the second statement directly follows the first with no intervening text.) You cannot contend that the second paragraph utterly prohibits supporting a less than perfect law - if the alternative is worse - since the first paragraph expressly allows it. Even if this proscription was directed at politicians it surely applies to voters as well: we may properly give our support to those who may not be perfect but will at least limit the harm done. You may consider this to be improperly compromising on fundamental issues of faith and morals but this document refutes that interpretation.

Ender
 
"Ender:
The key is that limiting evil is better than accomplishing nothing useful whatever.
The ‘key’ of not endoring moral relativism is that complicency with evil is not rewarded by God.
It is not moral relativism to do the best one can in a bad situation even if one cannot do all he would like. Nor is one complicit with evil for doing so. If a burning house contained ten people unable to get out on their own and you had time sufficient only to save one of them, would you refuse to do so because, by not saving the other nine, you would be complicit in their deaths?
However, if your emphasis is on pragmatism and results, how do you explain the utter lack of measurable success from your approach?
Don’t assume the failure to win the battle is proof that it shouldn’t have been fought or that it has been lost. You know, given the constitutional nature of Roe, that incremental policy successes will be negligible, that it is only by overturning Roe that real victory can be achieved. In that regard I measure success by the make up of the Supreme Court and to that end the Bush presidency has been very beneficial.

Ender
 
I did label the Democratic party ‘the party that promotes abortion on demand.’
This is a problem for me. I am opposed to the war, but I am pro-life. I am not sure what the best course of action would be in a situation like that.
 
This is a problem for me. I am opposed to the war, but I am pro-life. I am not sure what the best course of action would be in a situation like that.
There is so much spin on both political sides. How does a person know what to believe.

It comes down to me that when all is said and done, when you listen to both sides and do the research on the issues…there is a black and white issue that abortion is taking the life of the most innocent human being.

You still have to listen and research and study, but to me, I believe much much less of what the party says, that promotes abortion on demand and fights tooth and nail to make sure it stays that way.
 
With respect SoCalRC, I believe you are misinterpreting the document…

A political party is not the same as a “political program.” We absolutely should not support any laws, propositions, etc. that are contrary to Church teaching. However, in the context of “limiting harm” this document does not tell me that I can not make a choice of political parties, none of which follow Church teaching to the letter.
Read the whole document, it is difficult for me to agree with your distinction between party and program, since the rest of the sentence reads “political activity”.
 
You focussed on the second paragraph while ignoring the first (in fact you didn’t even include the first one in your citation) but they must be interpreted with respect to one another and not in isolation (in the document the second statement directly follows the first with no intervening text.)
There seemed no reason to reiterate it (I put the indication “limiting the harm” for contextual reference. In THIS CONTEXT…

You appear to be aruging that the paragraph addressing politicians applies to you, but that the paragraph that indicates situations that are even more “laden” with responsibility does not.
 
It is not moral relativism to do the best one can in a bad situation even if one cannot do all he would like. Nor is one complicit with evil for doing so. If a burning house contained ten people unable to get out on their own and you had time sufficient only to save one of them, would you refuse to do so because, by not saving the other nine, you would be complicit in their deaths?
Emotionally provocative, but relevant how? The Church lists specific non negotiables in voting. You argue that compromise is the only possible path to progress.

If it is not moral relativism (‘Sure, torture crucifixion is bad, but abortion is worse…’), then what is it, idolatry (‘God cannot be trusted as much as a politican party for good results…’)?

I’m not confusing ‘battles’. I want abortions to go down. You are the one who is absolutely convinced that the war must be waged in partisan politics and secular law. I’m just pointing out that 30 years of history seem to suggest that other things play a measurable role while party efforts do not.
 
I did not label any party the ‘God’ party. I did label the Democratic party ‘the party that promotes abortion on demand.’
Sorry, I missed this. I did not mean to imply that you had. You mentioned an unfortunately confusion about party vs. faith/responsibility and I was simply agreeing with the broad principle.

Again, sorry I did not catch this and apologize before.
 
Emotionally provocative, but relevant how? The Church lists specific non negotiables in voting. You argue that compromise is the only possible path to progress.

If it is not moral relativism (‘Sure, torture crucifixion is bad, but abortion is worse…’), then what is it, idolatry (‘God cannot be trusted as much as a politican party for good results…’)?

I’m not confusing ‘battles’. I want abortions to go down. You are the one who is absolutely convinced that the war must be waged in partisan politics and secular law. I’m just pointing out that 30 years of history seem to suggest that other things play a measurable role while party efforts do not.
Party efforts determine the Supreme Court make up. Very measurable role.
 
Party efforts determine the Supreme Court make up. Very measurable role.
We have 5 Supreme Court justices, all Catholic, all GOP appointed now. In Carhart, only two, on a concurring opinion, raised the issue of Roe/Casey’s constitutionality. The other three simply applied it as law and argued that the ban was consititutional because it would not stop any abortions (the opinion gave a handy guideline on how to circumvent the ban).

The question is, what are we obliged to do as Catholics. The Vatican has a Doctrinal Note regarding voting:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

In section 4, we will first find the following statement:
John Paul II, continuing the constant teaching of the Church, has reiterated many times that those who are directly involved in lawmaking bodies have a «grave and clear obligation to oppose» any law that attacks human life. For them, as for every Catholic, it is impossible to promote such laws or to vote for them.
That sounds absolute, you can’t vote for for anything that violates our concept of “right to life” (which is broader than just abortion). But, the document then continues with an explanation of a narrow exception called “limiting the harm”, introduced by John Paul II in EVANGELIUM VITAE.
As John Paul II has taught in his Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae regarding the situation in which it is not possible to overturn or completely repeal a law allowing abortion which is already in force or coming up for a vote, «an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality».
The example is an elected official, with impecable credentials attempting to lessen harm. So the obvious question is, how broadly can this concept be taken? Is it just elected officials, or can we compromise in voting to limit the harm ourselves?

The next paragraph reads:
In this context “limiting the harm”, italicized in the previous paragraph], it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals. The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church’s social doctrine does not exhaust one’s responsibility towards the common good. Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives him this task, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.
This appears to state that you cannot use the concept of “limiting the harm” to justify compromising on other important Catholic teachings. The faith is an “integral unity” so compromsing it is potentially harmful to the whole. Further, it warns that political committment to something is not a substitute for one’s comprehensive Christian obligations.

This leads to the question, what is “fundemental”, that is, what sorts of things cannot be compromised in limiting the harm?

The document continues:
When political activity comes up against moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation, the Catholic commitment becomes more evident and laden with responsibility. In the face of fundamental and inalienable ethical demands, Christians must recognize that what is at stake is the essence of the moral law, which concerns the integral good of the human person. This is the case with laws concerning…
So, the section, read in order, appears to say:
  • You can’t vote in violation of right to life (notice, not just abortion, but Catholic right to life).
  • If you are a politician, there is a narrow exception to allow you to help “limit the harm”.
  • It must be remembered that “limiting the harm” cannot be used to rationalize compromise or abridgement of other fundemtal tenants of the faith or basic Christian morality, since doing so can potentially undermine the entire Faith.
  • And when it comes to really important things, things we absolutely cannot compromise on, our Catholic reponsibility “becomes more evident and laden with responsibility”, that includes the principles of…
There are then nine things listed in the document. I believe that the Church is saying that they are non negotiable (“moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation”). Ender and Rlg appear to be arguing that they can be compromised under the concept of “limiting the harm”.

To me, that is the important question. Rather or not compromise is effective is a seperate question. It appears that compromise has not been measurably effective. Ender contends that it is people like me, arguing that the non negotiables should be all voted, that are impeding progress. I argue that it is the compromise itself that impedes measurable progress.

The ultimate source is the Church, which is why I quote and link to Church documents so often.
 
We have 5 Supreme Court justices, all Catholic, all GOP appointed now. In Carhart, only two, on a concurring opinion, raised the issue of Roe/Casey’s constitutionality. The other three simply applied it as law and argued that the ban was consititutional because it would not stop any abortions (the opinion gave a handy guideline on how to circumvent the ban).
Yes, but with absolute certainty, democrat appointed judges will be pro choice.

And the original point was that they do have an impact.
 
Yes, but with absolute certainty, democrat appointed judges will be pro choice.

And the original point was that they do have an impact.
What impact? You have a majority of GOP Catholics on the Supreme Court. They had a reproduction case presented to them. Change to Roe or Casey? None.

The reality is that somewhere between 80-90% of the US population believe in some degree of abortion legalization. Some want it very narrow (‘rape’, ‘maternal health’), some want it very wide, but they all want it to some degree.

While that is true, there will never be a secular law solution. We can’t even overturn Roe, and all that would do is turn it back to the states (15 states had already liberalized their abortion laws prior to Roe).

That does not mean that a secular legal battle is not worth fighting, but at what cost? If you compromise and support the GOP’s compromise on stem cell research, you are already abandoning our Pro Life teaching.

Even if the compromise is seemingly more distant, it still might be connected. Poverty has soared under the Bush administration, and appears poised to go quite a bit higher. We have reasonable evidence to suggest that prosperity leads to fewer abortions (see the data from the 90s) and poverty increases lead to more abortions (see the latest state data). How exactly does pursuing a policy that is not yielding measurable results make on pro life if the cost is other policies that increase abortions?

That is why I suggest following the Church’s lead. Don’t compromise on what has been deemed non-compromisable. Trust in God instead of politicians and their parties.
 
Yes, but with absolute certainty, democrat appointed judges will be pro choice.
.
I don’t see where this would be an absolute certainty. It might be highly probable, or with some argumentation, it might be argued to be highly probable, but I am convinced that it would be impossible to show that such an event as you have mentioned would be absolutely certain.
 
I don’t see where this would be an absolute certainty. It might be highly probable, or with some argumentation, it might be argued to be highly probable, but I am convinced that it would be impossible to show that such an event as you have mentioned would be absolutely certain.
So you are arguing that there is a chance that the democratic party if in power would nominate a prolife judge?
 
What impact? You have a majority of GOP Catholics on the Supreme Court. They had a reproduction case presented to them. Change to Roe or Casey? None.

The reality is that somewhere between 80-90% of the US population believe in some degree of abortion legalization. Some want it very narrow (‘rape’, ‘maternal health’), some want it very wide, but they all want it to some degree.

While that is true, there will never be a secular law solution. We can’t even overturn Roe, and all that would do is turn it back to the states (15 states had already liberalized their abortion laws prior to Roe).

That does not mean that a secular legal battle is not worth fighting, but at what cost? If you compromise and support the GOP’s compromise on stem cell research, you are already abandoning our Pro Life teaching.

Even if the compromise is seemingly more distant, it still might be connected. Poverty has soared under the Bush administration, and appears poised to go quite a bit higher. We have reasonable evidence to suggest that prosperity leads to fewer abortions (see the data from the 90s) and poverty increases lead to more abortions (see the latest state data). How exactly does pursuing a policy that is not yielding measurable results make on pro life if the cost is other policies that increase abortions?

That is why I suggest following the Church’s lead. Don’t compromise on what has been deemed non-compromisable. Trust in God instead of politicians and their parties.
Please stop the double talk.

Democratic president = certain pro choice judge

Republican president = very much higher chance of pro life judge
 
Please stop the double talk.

Democratic president = certain pro choice judge

Republican president = very much higher chance of pro life judge
It’s simple, 5 is a majority out of 9. The five are self described Catholics.

A GOP President just put two of them on the court. When push came to shove, they did not side against Roe.

It should be clear that judicial activism is not going to stop abortions in any meaningful way in the US. It is fixated on and promoted as an approach to abortion because it is the only approach that is compatible with the GOP’s primary base.
 
It’s simple, 5 is a majority out of 9. The five are self described Catholics.

A GOP President just put two of them on the court. When push came to shove, they did not side against Roe.

It should be clear that judicial activism is not going to stop abortions in any meaningful way in the US. It is fixated on and promoted as an approach to abortion because it is the only approach that is compatible with the GOP’s primary base.
You must be a professional politician.

Are you next going to say it is better for the democrats to nominate all judges?
 
It’s simple, 5 is a majority out of 9. The five are self described Catholics.

A GOP President just put two of them on the court. When push came to shove, they did not side against Roe.
Push has not yet come to shove: there has been no case before the current court where the issue of the judgment in Roe could properly be revisited.
It should be clear that judicial activism is not going to stop abortions in any meaningful way in the US. It is fixated on and promoted as an approach to abortion because it is the only approach that is compatible with the GOP’s primary base.
What we would like is an end to judicial activism - which means the reversal of rulings that fall in that category. Specifically, Roe v. Wade. I’m quite sure that if abortion becomes illegal there will be substantially fewer of them.

Ender
 
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