Is there a difference where a priest is trained/studied?

[ConstantineTG]

Basically with the long list of Latinization/Americanization/Protestanization, would a priest who was born and raised and went to seminary in the “homeland” of an Eastern Church be more orthodox than one who was born and raised in North America given the influence of the environment?

If you have experiences, please share.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Basically with the long list of Latinization/Americanization/Protestanization, would a priest who was born and raised and went to seminary in the “homeland” of an Eastern Church be more orthodox than one who was born and raised in North America given the influence of the environment?

If you have experiences, please share.

I think it depends on which seminary he attended. There is a wide range these days, although, in general, things are improving somewhat.

Satan entered the seminaries of this country some time back, and only now have they begun to address the problem. I’ve talked to some young priests who knew the faith before they entered seminary and said that some seminaries were teaching outright heresy. I asked how they got through seminary and they said they did what they had to to get through, but knew what the truth was, so they weren’t infected with the heresy.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think it depends on which seminary he attended. There is a wide range these days, although, in general, things are improving somewhat.

Satan entered the seminaries of this country some time back, and only now have they begun to address the problem. I’ve talked to some young priests who knew the faith before they entered seminary and said that some seminaries were teaching outright heresy. I asked how they got through seminary and they said they did what they had to to get through, but knew what the truth was, so they weren’t infected with the heresy.

By “orthodox” I meant more Eastern. Of course a priest growing up in North America would be more in tune with North American practices which includes a mix of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. A priest from, say the Ukraine, would be more in tune with the Orthodox practices as Ukrainians are mostly Orthodox. I would assume the UGCC parishes there would be similar in practice and tradition to the Orthodox, but in communion with Rome.

 

[Scoobyshme]

By “orthodox” I meant more Eastern. Of course a priest growing up in North America would be more in tune with North American practices which includes a mix of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. A priest from, say the Ukraine, would be more in tune with the Orthodox practices as Ukrainians are mostly Orthodox. I would assume the UGCC parishes there would be similar in practice and tradition to the Orthodox, but in communion with Rome.

I think the word “orthodox” comes from the Greek and means, basically, “right teaching,” does it not?

So, do you mean “Orthodox” (capital “O”) vs. “orthodox” (lower case “o”)?

I think there are many priests in North America who are very orthodox and faithful to Christ’s teachings, as handed down from Jesus to His Apostles who did likewise to their successors.

There are also many who have been afflicted with the heresy of modernism, sad to say. Bishops, too. We have an obligation to pray for these, that they may be converted back to Christ and His Church. We should also pray for those who are faithful, in order to strengthen them.

Here’s some good talks by one of the good, orthodox priests, Fr. Corapi, of you’re interested:

alabamacatholicresources.com/Fr_John_Corapi.html

 

[ConstantineTG]

This being an Eastern Catholic sub-forum, I am interested on the Eastern Catholic viewpoint and not really on the “traditionalist vs. modernist” view. A small “o” orthodox in the Eastern sense would mean faithful to the Eastern traditions, as many who view Latinizations and Westernizations as not the right way to express Eastern faith.

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

I will ask my priest where the melkites send their seminaries now since they closed their own seminary a while back. I think the Ruthenians and the Ukranians both operate one in the United States both in the northeast I believe. I have read discussions on byzcath where some clergy were hoping to either consolodate all Byzantine seminarians in the US to one jointly administrated seminary to reduce costs or allow them to take the bulk of their education at Eastern Orthodox seminaries.

I think as far as laztinzations being taught and modernist theology I bet it varies from seminary. I should think the two byzantine seminaries are rather orthodox in faith and hopefully not overly syncretistic with latin understandings.

 

[ConstantineTG]

One thing I noticed is a Byzantine priest blessed my child during Communion (I was carrying him and receiving). Now this is a very North American thing in the Roman Catholic Church, it doesn’t happen in Roman Catholic parishes outside of North America. Although I could imagine today that it could already have spread to some extent.

On the other hand the other priest who grew up and went to seminary in Ukarine doesn’t do this.

So I’m thinking about it and my guess that its the influence of the culture here that would lead a priest to accept and do such practices as blessing during Communion.

 

[C_Alexander]

What particular seminary they attended and what bishop they are under does seem to have an impact, but whether the seminary was inside or outside the US doesn’t seem to have a correlation. It has not been my experience that foreign priests are naturally more traditional or orthodox. Latinizations are not just an American thing. The small subset of priests who are the most traditionally minded seem to include a high percentage of second or third generation Americans in my limited experience. The rest seem to run the gamut from 30 minute spoken liturgies with kneeling to 1.5 hour chanted liturgies that are all standing and everything in between with American and non-American falling all along the line.

 

[ConstantineTG]

What particular seminary they attended and what bishop they are under does seem to have an impact, but whether the seminary was inside or outside the US doesn’t seem to have a correlation. It has not been my experience that foreign priests are naturally more traditional or orthodox. Latinizations are not just an American thing. The small subset of priests who are the most traditionally minded seem to include a high percentage of second or third generation Americans in my limited experience. The rest seem to run the gamut from 30 minute spoken liturgies with kneeling to 1.5 hour chanted liturgies that are all standing and everything in between with American and non-American falling all along the line.

Thanks!

In my case the priest blessed someone who wasn’t receiving Communion. I don’t think its a Latinization because I only see it in RC parishes here in North America. In Asia when I was there, this practice never existed. I wouldn’t be surprised though if the practice eventually made its way there. But I think its more of a Protestanization. Definitely nothing Eastern. But the priest was born and raised here and I figured he understood the reason for it from the cultural perspective (ie, its the way its done here).

 

[AdvanceAlways]

I think the word “orthodox” comes from the Greek and means, basically, “right teaching,” does it not?

So, do you mean “Orthodox” (capital “O”) vs. “orthodox” (lower case “o”)?

I think there are many priests in North America who are very orthodox and faithful to Christ’s teachings, as handed down from Jesus to His Apostles who did likewise to their successors.

There are also many who have been afflicted with the heresy of modernism, sad to say. Bishops, too. We have an obligation to pray for these, that they may be converted back to Christ and His Church. We should also pray for those who are faithful, in order to strengthen them.

Here’s some good talks by one of the good, orthodox priests, Fr. Corapi, of you’re interested:

alabamacatholicresources.com/Fr_John_Corapi.html

This has nothing to do with “modernism,” the Catholic world is far greater than the silly “there’s a modernist in my closet” attitude that so many seem to take. The topic here is looking at Orthodox practices, not othodox theology (which you will of course find in the east, just without all the “modernist!” nonsense.

 

[Aramis]

the most Vostochnik (eastern) priest I’ve met is Rev. Fr. James… and he’s a convert from protestantism… was a Lutheran preacher.

 

[Romanova]

One thing I noticed is a Byzantine priest blessed my child during Communion (I was carrying him and receiving). Now this is a very North American thing in the Roman Catholic Church, it doesn’t happen in Roman Catholic parishes outside of North America. Although I could imagine today that it could already have spread to some extent.

On the other hand the other priest who grew up and went to seminary in Ukarine doesn’t do this.

So I’m thinking about it and my guess that its the influence of the culture here that would lead a priest to accept and do such practices as blessing during Communion.

My guess is that it’s the culture – maybe not the culture of America even so much as the culture of a particular parish or region… E.g. if parishioners have asked that priest to bless children during Communion, or if they expect him to based on prior practice in that parish, he might go ahead and do it (figuring why not) regardless of where he attended seminary.

(PS – I’ve seen the blessing of non-communicants done in a Roman Catholic parish in Eastern Europe before. I saw that the priest did not bless young children, but did bless a handful of non-communicant adults without any hesitation. I don’t know the full situation – perhaps they were RCIA candidates, perhaps they were Eastern Orthodox, perhaps the priest knows their situation, etc. But I don’t think it’s exclusively a North American thing, though it certainly is most prevalent here…)

 

[Hesychios]

I have read discussions on byzcath where some clergy were hoping to either consolodate all Byzantine seminarians in the US to one jointly administrated seminary to reduce costs …

That would be a good idea.

…or allow them to take the bulk of their education at Eastern Orthodox seminaries.

That would probably be a mistake.

 

[C_Alexander]

It’s been my experience that most Roman Catholics assess the priest or parish’s orthodoxy to tradition by comparing it to the Roman Catholic Church. Is this something that I would find in a pre-Vatican II Mass? Then it is traditional. Is this something I’d find in a Novus Ordo Mass? Then it is suspect.

I can understand how this happens as it is the only measure they know as most are not familiar enough with the east to understand the eastern mindset and apply it to eastern history and tradition. This is especially difficult when there are so many Eastern and Oriental traditions to familiarize oneself with.

By using that evaluation, a priest doing the lavabo after the offertory goes completely unnoticed as the Latinization that it is while a priest using the area’s vernacular, the tradition of the east, is suspect of modernism. A better way to address the issue when visiting an Eastern or Oriental Catholic parish is to first make sure that they’re in communion with the Church and then to suspend all expectations and judgments and to take a priest or parish for what they are, assuming that they have more knowledge and training and a better grasp of what is acceptable for their own tradition. As you participate more, you’ll start to learn the eastern mindset and will know where the priest or parish falls within it.

I don’t know about the blessing of infants who are not Chrismated and are therefore unable to be communed, but it does not particularly strike me as a latinization of concern. The priest would ordinarily give those children a much greater blessing by reception of the Eucharist, blessings are much more abundant in the east in general, and the priest’s movements are not as strictly codified during the Liturgy as they are in the west. It does nothing to diminish the tradition of the east to show hospitality to these visitors who are unable to receive. We even share the same loaf of bread with them from which the Eucharist was blessed as we have a strong focus on being united during the Eucharistic feast and on all present sharing in the blessing as they are able. Now, I’m not arguing in favor or against the practice of giving blessings to children during Communion as I know nothing about their development, it just isn’t something that would strike me as a matter of concern. If a good number of those children who were not communed were parishioners, then I would wonder what was going on.

 

[babochka]

Basically with the long list of Latinization/Americanization/Protestanization, would a priest who was born and raised and went to seminary in the “homeland” of an Eastern Church be more orthodox than one who was born and raised in North America given the influence of the environment?

If you have experiences, please share.

My priest is from Slovakia and went to seminary in Europe, but he says that his formation was very Latin. He has stated that when he reads Eastern theology it seems foreign to him. In his homeland, the practice of infant communion is just now being restored, but in my parish it has been practiced at least since the early 70s. I don’t know if this can be generalized, just my experience.

 

[babochka]

One thing I noticed is a Byzantine priest blessed my child during Communion (I was carrying him and receiving). Now this is a very North American thing in the Roman Catholic Church, it doesn’t happen in Roman Catholic parishes outside of North America. Although I could imagine today that it could already have spread to some extent.

On the other hand the other priest who grew up and went to seminary in Ukarine doesn’t do this.

So I’m thinking about it and my guess that its the influence of the culture here that would lead a priest to accept and do such practices as blessing during Communion.

Again, I can only speak to my own experience here. Our priest is from Slovakia and has been in the US for just over a year. His wife is American and he spent a few extended periods in the US before coming permanently. He is the only Eastern priest I have known who blesses babies who are not receiving. While I was pregnant, he blessed the baby in my womb. Before the Baptism, he blessed the baby, and now that the baby has received Holy Communion, he blesses him when he is sleeping at Communion time.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks!

In my case the priest blessed someone who wasn’t receiving Communion. I don’t think its a Latinization because I only see it in RC parishes here in North America. In Asia when I was there, this practice never existed. I wouldn’t be surprised though if the practice eventually made its way there. But I think its more of a Protestanization. Definitely nothing Eastern. But the priest was born and raised here and I figured he understood the reason for it from the cultural perspective (ie, its the way its done here).

This blessing is done here. If one is not receiving, one crosses one’s arms and the chalice is placed upon the head while the blessing is said. But in this Byzantine church, there are no “extraordinary” ministers, so the blessing is given by an ordained person - priest or deacon.

 

[C_Alexander]

This blessing is done here. If one is not receiving, one crosses one’s arms and the chalice is placed upon the head while the blessing is said. But in this Byzantine church, there are no “extraordinary” ministers, so the blessing is given by an ordained person - priest or deacon.

The crossed arms as an indication that one isn’t receiving is something I’ve only seen in a Roman Catholic church. I’ve seen the majority of Eastern Catholics who are receiving approach with their arms crossed in that way.

The blessing with the chalice on the head of a person who isn’t receiving is something I’ve seen, I think, in every Eastern Catholic (Byzantine rite) church that I’ve been to. I’ve seen those of every age blessed in this way. I’m glad you pointed this out because I was only thinking of a blessing with the hands, which would probably be inappropriate during Communion because the chalice is the only thing used to bless during the communion rite if I remember correctly. Do you know more about that?

 

[Aramis]

The crossed arms as an indication that one isn’t receiving is something I’ve only seen in a Roman Catholic church. I’ve seen the majority of Eastern Catholics who are receiving approach with their arms crossed in that way.

The blessing with the chalice on the head of a person who isn’t receiving is something I’ve seen, I think, in every Eastern Catholic (Byzantine rite) church that I’ve been to. I’ve seen those of every age blessed in this way. I’m glad you pointed this out because I was only thinking of a blessing with the hands, which would probably be inappropriate during Communion because the chalice is the only thing used to bless during the communion rite if I remember correctly. Do you know more about that?

The Ruthenian priests I’ve seen bless the individual with their spoon hand, having dropped the spoon into the chalice, not with the chalice. But then, they have one end of the purificator held with the hand on the chalice, and the corners of the other held by the servers… so the chalice isn’t readily mobile.