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ConstantineTG
Guest
Notice the quotes, I don’t know what its called but you know what I mean.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
If “GIRM” has something to do with girl altar-servers, then no . . .
Alex
Alex
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ConstantineTG
Guest
GIRM = General Instruction of the Roman Missal
It contains the rubrics, both for the priests and the laity of the Roman Mass
I was wondering if there is such any equivalent for the Divine Liturgy
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gelsbern
Guest
GIRM is an acronym for General Instruction of the Roman Missal.
However, I am pretty sure that Divine Liturgy is the name used for the Mass in some Eastern Churches.
Are you referring to the Divine Office or otherwise known as the Liturgy of the Hours?
If so, there is a guide available from a lot of catholic book outlets, but I think that’s more of a schedule.
EWTN has a section here ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwgilh.htm
That should help you out. In fact they call it “GENERAL INSTRUCTION OF THE LITURGY OF THE HOURS”
However, I am pretty sure that Divine Liturgy is the name used for the Mass in some Eastern Churches.
Are you referring to the Divine Office or otherwise known as the Liturgy of the Hours?
If so, there is a guide available from a lot of catholic book outlets, but I think that’s more of a schedule.
EWTN has a section here ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwgilh.htm
That should help you out. In fact they call it “GENERAL INSTRUCTION OF THE LITURGY OF THE HOURS”
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No, I’m referring to the Divine Liturgy itself. I want to learn proper postures and gestures during Divine Liturgy.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I have a copy of the Byzantine Book of Prayer which has the Divine Liturgy of both St John Chrysostom and St Basil. They both contain instructions in red, so like I have heard about the Missal, do the red say the black. I have seen other books of the Divine Liturgy that also have instructions in them.
I am unsure if the blue book put out for the RDL has them, though I use it when I attend St Melany’s here in Tucson, I will pay more attention next time I am well enough to attend.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Interesting. Would it be uniform across different sui juris Churches or would each one have specific traditions?
Is there such book online? I’m unsure if there is an Eastern Catholic bookstore in my area, would getting the same book from an Orthodox Bookstore be okay?
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Hesychios
Guest
I am pretty sure Doctor Alex already knows this, I think he was being a bit facetious
There are very few laypersons who know more about Catholicism than Alex, of this I am certain.
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Hesychios
Guest
Good question.
In the Byzantine/Orthodox tradition at large there are the traditional Typicons, there are two major ones, the ‘Jerusalem’ and the ‘Studion’. But local churches as synods have always adapted their usage, it’s been an organic process.
With the notable exception of the Russian Catholic community, the Byzantine Slav traditions under the Pope (Ruthenian Rescension) have mostly been liturgically ‘regulated’ (in a manner of speaking) through the Ordo Celebrationis, which seems to be what you are asking about. The two most prominent grpoups included are the UGCC and the various sub-Carpathian jurisdictions, which in the USA are grouped under the Ruthenian Metropolia of Pittsburgh. The Melkites are Byzantines but not included in the above, probably their Patriarchal synod has it’s own way of regulating the liturgical practices.
I don’t know about any of the other Eastern Catholic traditions, there may be something similar approved by the Vatican for each of the ones which do not have a patriarchal synod. It is certainly something worth investigating
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I found something on an Orthodox site:
orthodox.net/services/sluzebnic-chrysostom.pdf
Also found a good book, but it costs $60:
ustpaul.ca/Sheptytsky/pubs/publications_main.htm
Somewhere down the middle is The Divine Liturgy: An Anthology for Worship
orthodox.net/services/sluzebnic-chrysostom.pdf
Also found a good book, but it costs $60:
ustpaul.ca/Sheptytsky/pubs/publications_main.htm
Somewhere down the middle is The Divine Liturgy: An Anthology for Worship
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Vico
Guest
Yes, there are documents created by the Vatican, on the request of the various Eastern Catholic Churches, that contain what are called recensions of the Liturgies, including the rubrics. They are used as a basis for translations into the vernacular for promulgation in the various eparchies, under the authority of the eparchs. It may take many years to adopt the full recension, as it is done in parts.
The Byzantine Catholic Church USA has a full set of Divine Liturgy books, including rubrics, revised in 2006, and the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts revised in 2010.
Byzantine USA: metropolitancantorinstitute.org/Publications2.html
Melkite: melkite.org/Dliturgy.htm
Ukrainian (Canada): The Divine Liturgy: An Anthology for Worship
ustpaul.ca/Sheptytsky/pubs/publications_main.htm
vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/lev/documents/varie.html
All these Recensions were published, with different rubrics and languages for the various Oriental Churches. Listed below are the volumes, with generally many items under each (use the link). So here are listed Byzantine recensions: Greek, Russian-Bulgarian-Serbian, Ukrainian & Ruthenian, Rumanian. Alexandrian recensions: Coptic, Ethiopian. Chaldean recension. Russian and Melkite liturgical books.
I. Libri Liturgici Per Le Chiese Orientali Di Rito Bizantino:
V51 A) In Lingua Greca
…B) In Lingua Slava Ecclesiastica
V52 1. Recensio Vulgata (Pro Russis, Bulgaris, Serbis)
V53 2. Recensio Ruthena (Pro Ucrainis Et Ruthenis)
V53 3. Pro Utraque Recensione
V54 C) In Lingua Rumena
II. V55 Libri Liturgici Per Le Chiese Orientali Di Rito Alessandrino-Copto
III. V56 Libri Liturgici Per Le Chiese Orientali Di Rito Alessandrino-Etiopico
IV. V57 Edizione Romana Dei Rituali Etiopici
V. V58 Libri Liturgici Per Le Chiese Orientali Di Rito Siro-Orientale O Caldeo
…V59 Varia
VI. V60 Libri Liturgici Per Le Chiese Orientali In Lingua Russa
VII. V61 Libri Liturgici Per Le Chiese Orientali Di Rito Melkita
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ConstantineTG
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Thanks Vico! I did find that, “The Divine Liturgy: An Anthology for Worship”. I might go for that as I attend DL in an Ukrainian Church.
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Aramis
Guest
For the Ruthenian…
Yes, but it’s in the front matter for the Priest’s Book. It’s not nearly as thorough.
There also is the material in the Cantor’s Companion. It doesn’t quite match, tho.
But also remember: There are also 12 volumes of the menaion, two volumes for the priest, plus the epistle book and gospel book, and a whole lot of gaps.
Further, a lot of rubrics are “in the traditional manner”…
Yes, but it’s in the front matter for the Priest’s Book. It’s not nearly as thorough.
There also is the material in the Cantor’s Companion. It doesn’t quite match, tho.
But also remember: There are also 12 volumes of the menaion, two volumes for the priest, plus the epistle book and gospel book, and a whole lot of gaps.
Further, a lot of rubrics are “in the traditional manner”…
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5Loaves
Guest
Maybe I’m missing it but I don’t see the kind of “posture” rubrics in that document which the GIRM has for the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.
In my experience I see variation. At my parish, and the Russian Orthodox parishes I go to, for example, the Deacon makes a Small Reverence, crosses himself and bows at the waist, at then end of each petition in the Litanies. Some people do likewise. Mostly I see that people cross themselves when a petition is one that is of special meaning to them, at least this is what I was told early on, and how I tend to respond myself. Most everyone in the congregation makes the sign of the Cross and reaches to or touches the ground at the mention of the Holy Trinity, at each of the three “Holy God, Holy Mighty…” at the name of our most holy, most pure, most blessed, glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary with all the saints, and of Christ our God… We also make a profound bow during the words of Christ “Take eat…” and “Drink of it all of you…” and then some prostrate at the end (including on Sundays), some just touch the ground.
We bow when the deacon, or priest incenses us, when the Book of the Gospels is processed in the Little Entrance and the gifts in the Great Entrance… The list goes on and on…
In both the Russian Orthodox and my EC parish when I first began attending the priests and deacons simply said to do what I saw others doing and not to worry. Neither parish has prayer books because the priests don’t want people eyes in the books, they want the eyes on the action, on the icons etc.
The “The Sign of the Cross” section of “Church Etiquette” on the St Elias Ukrainian Catholic Church, Brampton, Ontario web site seems to have a general set of “rubrics” that are similar to the churches I attend. (They have a wonderful website I think.)
The Greek Orthodox I sometimes go to have different postures, in part influenced by the presence of pews…The Jordanville Prayerbook has a section at the end “How One Should Pray in Church” which details about crossing one’s self, prostrations etc.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Thanks! I thought the ones in red italics are the rubrics? I haven’t read the whole thing through as I was at work when I posted that link. But I’ve since discovered the book I mentioned in the previous post and its the one used at the UGCC parish I go to, so I might buy that one. They are offering it for the discounted price, granting there’s still stock.Maybe I’m missing it but I don’t see the kind of “posture” rubrics in that document which the GIRM has for the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.
In my experience I see variation. At my parish, and the Russian Orthodox parishes I go to, for example, the Deacon makes a Small Reverence, crosses himself and bows at the waist, at then end of each petition in the Litanies. Some people do likewise. Mostly I see that people cross themselves when a petition is one that is of special meaning to them, at least this is what I was told early on, and how I tend to respond myself. Most everyone in the congregation makes the sign of the Cross and reaches to or touches the ground at the mention of the Holy Trinity, at each of the three “Holy God, Holy Mighty…” at the name of our most holy, most pure, most blessed, glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary with all the saints, and of Christ our God… We also make a profound bow during the words of Christ “Take eat…” and “Drink of it all of you…” and then some prostrate at the end (including on Sundays), some just touch the ground.
We bow when the deacon, or priest incenses us, when the Book of the Gospels is processed in the Little Entrance and the gifts in the Great Entrance… The list goes on and on…
In both the Russian Orthodox and my EC parish when I first began attending the priests and deacons simply said to do what I saw others doing and not to worry. Neither parish has prayer books because the priests don’t want people eyes in the books, they want the eyes on the action, on the icons etc.
The “The Sign of the Cross” section of “Church Etiquette” on the St Elias Ukrainian Catholic Church, Brampton, Ontario web site seems to have a general set of “rubrics” that are similar to the churches I attend. (They have a wonderful website I think.)
The Jordanville Prayerbook has a section at the end “How One Should Pray in Church” which details about crossing one’s self, prostrations etc.
Also thanks for the link to St. Elias. That was very helpful.
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Vico
Guest
The recensions from the Vatican have great detail, which may not be published in what is promulgated. For example, for the Ruthenian:
Ordo Celebrationis 1944 – English 1955 – Ruthenian Prenotations
**II. General Rules **
11. The small bow, whereby one makes a sign of the Cross upon himself, inclines his head and shoulders a little, and does not protend his hand to his knees or to the ground either before of after the sign of the Cross, is used in the following cases:
a.) When one first enters the sanctuary approaching the holy altar, and when one finally departs from it and leaves the sanctuary; while making hte bows, he also kisses the holy altar;
b.) In the beginning of any Office when one says: “Blahosloven Boh nas…” or, if there is not apriest, "Molitvami svjatych otec…"
c.) At the Trisagion, thrice; and also when one says: "Krestu Tvojemu poklana jemsja…;"
d.) At “Prijdite poklonimsja…”; thrice;
e.) When one says three Allilujas at the end of the stichologies; thrice (i.e., bowing once at each threefold Aliluja);
f.) Whenever the three Persons of the Life-giving Trinity are mentioned together;
g.) Whenever onen receives a blessing from the priest;
h.) As often as one comes before the royal doors for reading or chanting something, and when one departs from the place after this reading or chanting;
i.) As often as one passes before the holy altar or before the iconostas;
k.) As often as it is prescribed by the rubrics.
It is proper to make the sign of the Cross upon oneself without, however, inclining the head or shoulders, at the beginning and also at the end of the gospel.
It is proper also that the deacon show a reverence, that is, he inclines his head and shoulders a little to the celebrating priest before leaving the sanctuary for singing the Ektanijas and after he reenters it.
12. The great bow or the great metanije, whereby one makes the sign of the Cross upon oneself, and prostrates his entire body to the ground, is used only in the Great Fast (Lent) and in the Office of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
As always, there are rules and then there are the parishes that interpret the rules.
If I went to my parish and performed all the rubrics listed here, I would cause comment.
It is always best to try and blend in with what others in the parish are doing and avoid “sticking out” with extra bows and prostrations when no one else is doing them. This is like the Old Believer rule that tells people to avoid banging their heads on the floor when making prostrations so as not to call attention to oneself . . .
This reminds me of a convert friend of mine who used to wear several prayer ropes on his wrist (one wasn’t enough, apparently), who carry several prayer books into church with him, and would Cross himself at the drop of a hat.
He was taking me to a university religious club once and kept crossing himself at every corner. Then, while driving on an open stretch of land, he again crossed himself (he got to be really good at it!). I looked around and didn’t see any reason why he should cross himself (other than his hand was doing this automatically every so often on its own).
He then saw me look around and said, “Do you see that hill over there? Well, there is a cemetery behind it.”
I simply had to cause him some consternation at that point by saying, “But is it a Catholic cemetery . . .?”
I later had to dissuade him from going to confession on that score.
Alex
If I went to my parish and performed all the rubrics listed here, I would cause comment.
It is always best to try and blend in with what others in the parish are doing and avoid “sticking out” with extra bows and prostrations when no one else is doing them. This is like the Old Believer rule that tells people to avoid banging their heads on the floor when making prostrations so as not to call attention to oneself . . .
This reminds me of a convert friend of mine who used to wear several prayer ropes on his wrist (one wasn’t enough, apparently), who carry several prayer books into church with him, and would Cross himself at the drop of a hat.
He was taking me to a university religious club once and kept crossing himself at every corner. Then, while driving on an open stretch of land, he again crossed himself (he got to be really good at it!). I looked around and didn’t see any reason why he should cross himself (other than his hand was doing this automatically every so often on its own).
He then saw me look around and said, “Do you see that hill over there? Well, there is a cemetery behind it.”
I simply had to cause him some consternation at that point by saying, “But is it a Catholic cemetery . . .?”
I later had to dissuade him from going to confession on that score.
Alex
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Thanks! But I’d still like to learn more. Sometimes I don’t know whom to follow, the subdeacon or the rest of the people. It seems some of the laity are latinized and would kneel at consecration and after Communion. The subdeacon stood for most, if not all of DL. At times I stood with him and at times I sat with the congregation. I want to learn how to do it right and also what is proper. Also since I was following the subdeacon, I don’t know if what I’m doing is proper only to him or to everyone else.
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