Is there an incorrect way of veneration or honoring Saints?

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Aris

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As seen by a previous poll, many of our brothers who converted to Catholicism found praying to saints and honoring of saints a big stumbling block to conversion.

Does the Church provide guidelines in the proper way to honor the saints?

Also since this has proven to be a stumbling block in our reconciliation, why can’t we adopt as a discipline refraining from very very overt display of honoring like kissing the statue of the saint, much in the same way that the early Christians refrained from eating blood and “unclean animals”. Didn’t they do this a way to reduce the tension between the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians?

Just wondering.
 
I don’t know if the Church provide guidelines in the proper way to honor the saints. But my parish-priest told me to start prayer to a saint in this way: “God, I come before you to hounor you in your saint XXX and ask for XXX’s intercession.”

After saying so you pray to the saint. I always like to end an intercessional prayer with doing the cross and say Amen in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Blessings!

G.G.
 
Sure, you pick a Patron Saint who emulates the qualities you would most like to develop within yourself. Like an athlete models himself after another athlete that has gone beefore him. I model myself after St. Thomas Aquinas, although some people claim my apologetic modus is more like Tertullian. That is why I pick St. Thomas, because of his thoughtful, thorough, and humble manner of apologetics. If I were a basketball player, I would want to emulate Michael Jordan for his athleticism, work ethic, and on-court leadership. It doesn’t mean that I believe MJ is a “basketball god”. He is just a great player who I want to be like. Likewise with Saints. THe Church has officially declared that these people lived a live that earned them an immedicate beatific vision. Unlike the case with MJ, I can ask these people, who stand in the presence of God to pray for me, to join their prayers with mine in asking God for the things I need help with. Jesus commands us to look after each other and pray for eachother. Just because our bodies are dead does not mean our souls go into hibernation. If we have lived like Christ commands, he greets us with “Well done, my good and faithful servant” and welcomes us into paradise. From theire we can continue our work in helping and supporting the “Church Militant”, who are still on their earthly pilgramage to heaven.
 
What bothers me is when Catholic faithful in public places, say at a shrine. Will in a loud voice say, Mary or St. Joseph or Francis, please heal my child or do this or that. Instead of Mary please join me in prayer to your son that He might heal my child if it be His will. I have thought of (but never have) going up to someone praying in this way and saying “St. anthony will not find your grandmothers ring for you” God might tell you where it is at Anthony’s request! I have had people say to me be careful don’t drop Mary, when moving a statue. I felt like saying this is not Mary. This is a piece of plaster.

I’ve had the same people say to me did you put the “bread” back in the tabernacle? I always say, no, I put Christ or the Blessed Sacrament back into the tabernacle. They do not recognize the statue as a chunk of concrete but see the Sacramental presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament as only a piece of bread.
 
Its called catholic shorthard. 🙂
I know Mary isn’t going to cure my son, she knows she not going to cure my son, we both both know any curing comes from God, and any graces she has comes from God.
But instead of going thru the long explanation everytime single time we pray we simply talk to her like the mom that she is.
Do you have to explain to mom everytime you want her to ask dad for something?
 
Yes, to turn it into worship, where the saints are put higher than God or in an equal role.

This is a sin, rare, against the Church teachings, and not done by the overwhelming majority of Catholics.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Will in a loud voice say, Mary or St. Joseph or Francis, please heal my child or do this or that. Instead of Mary please join me in prayer to your son that He might heal my child if it be His will.
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This must be a sin against the first commandment: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. …”

It might be superstition: CCC 2111 “Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes.** It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary**. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.41”

It might also be Idolatry : CCC 2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring “the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46”

But we must also remember that only God know the hearts: CCC 2132 “The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. the movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71”

**I don’t mean to be ruude (hope that’s the right english word). I only want people to think about their practice in this matter honoring and praying through saints. Is it done proper way that is in accordance with the will of God? **
Br. Rich SFO:
I’ve had the same people say to me did you put the “bread” back in the tabernacle? I always say, no, I put Christ or the Blessed Sacrament back into the tabernacle.
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I think your response is right. The way I feel about this is that it is very disrespeckful to call the host for “bread” after the transsustitution. It is Jesus Christ!

(Please excuse any spellingmistakes. English is not my first language).

God Bless!

G.G.
 
If you do a search on words like “dulia,” hyperdulia," and “latria” you will find a good deal of theological writing on how we should honor the saints. In short, dulia is the Greek theological term for veneration of the saints, hyperdulia is the unique form of veneration we give to the Blessed Virgin, and latria is the worship and adoration we give to God alone.

This all might sound alarmingly technical, but like many things it is simpler than it sounds!
 
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Fortiterinre:
In short, dulia is the Greek theological term for veneration of the saints, hyperdulia is the unique form of veneration we give to the Blessed Virgin, and latria is the worship and adoration we give to God alone.

This all might sound alarmingly technical, but like many things it is simpler than it sounds!
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Yes, as a Catholic I understand all this. But how do you put forth this argument to non-catholics, who have been conditioned all their life about Catholics “worshipping saints”?

Quotes from the old testament about doesn’t really have that much of an effect on them.

Br. Rich hit it on the nail, when we ascribe special powers to the Saints and forget that it is God that grants these requests by the saints because of their unity with God.

Again instead of trying to explain our position to Protestants, why can’t we also clarify among ourselves the correct motivation and method of honoring the saints?
 
It might be superstition: CCC 2111 “Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.41”
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G. G.,

Thanks! This shows that the Church is aware that lawful practices can be misused.

But how do you spot it and what to do?

Aris
 
*Also since this has proven to be a stumbling block in our reconciliation, why can’t we adopt as a discipline refraining from very very overt display of honoring like kissing the statue of the saint, much in the same way that the early Christians refrained from eating blood and “unclean animals”. Didn’t they do this a way to reduce the tension between the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians?
*
Aris, I would be so bummed if your suggestion were put into practice. I am a convert from the Presbyterian church and one of the things I have grown to love about the Catholic understanding of the communion of the saints is that we have these wonderful (saintly!) friends who will pray for us if asked.

Just like we like to give our friends a little hug or peck on the cheek, so we Catholics also like to give our friends in heaven a little kiss to thank them for their prayers for us. We can’t do it in person, but the picture or icon or statue stands in their place until we can greet and embrace them in heaven (God willing) face to face.

Every now and then, we give a kiss to a picture of my mother-in-law that died of cancer a few years ago, remembering her and her life. I’m not saying we’re venerating her as a saint, just explaining that everyone does these things in their homes. We have pictures of loved ones both living and dead to remind us of our love for them.

Explaining these little devotional acts is much better in my opinion than banning them. I like to put my kiss on my fingers and press my fingers to the picture or statue, rather than my lips. I’m always a bit nervous that someone will come by and chastise me for ruining their sacred art.

I once asked the RE director if our children would be allowed to venerate our very large icon of St. Stephen and she replied, “No! It’s not allowed! We don’t want Protestants thinking we worship saints!” right in front of the children. How sad. We have stunted the formation of our children by bending over backwards not to look “too Catholic” to non-Catholics. It is an easy thing to teach children to love the saints when we can show that love in such a simple way.

That all being said, I have never seen another person kiss a statue or icon or picture in person. Perhaps my area is just too modern and it’s not a popular devotional practice here? To the people in my parish, banning the kissing of statues would be like saying, “From now on we request that you all stop bowing your head when you hear Jesus’ name everywhere you go. It’s a stumbling block to reconciliation with our Protestant brethren.”

They’d be dumbfounded, wondering who these strange people were that kept doing such an outdated thing and why they thought it necessary to make such an announcement at *our *parish!
 
Let me see if I understood it correctly.
  1. Belief in purgatory, communion of saints is something declared infallibly.
  2. Bowing, kissing statues of saints are practices.
If we should refrain bowing to statues of saints (discipline), that would be okay right?

I’m not saying we should stop the practice. I just said if the Early Church refrained from eating blood so as not to scandalize the jewish Christians then there might be a similar way for us in our present time.

And you’re right there is nothing really wrong with kissing the statue of the saint. 👍 Your RE Director should be given a pamphlet of Catholic Answers 😃

And yes, it should be clear why we kiss the statue of the saint. Is it because we show honor the saint or is it because we believe that in so doing some of the saint’s power is transferred to us.

And yes, it should be clear that the saint is just a friend praying for us. God giving our request depends ultimately on His plan for us.

Thus, my questions for this was answered.
 
I think sometimes people can be too judgemental, and/or expect to see something so put the worst possible motive to an action.(ie. kissing a statue=worship of idol).

I asked my Latin friend why after the sign of the cross they bring their fingers to their lips. She said it was a mental kiss to Christ. In the same way, people who kiss statues, are giving in a concrete form, a “mental” kiss to the saint or Christ. To ask people to refrain from this would be completely wrong in my view. It would be like asking them to stop loving with their whole heart. It is cultural.

However, I do believe Catholics should be educated better so when they talk to other non catholic Christians, they don’t use the shorthand. But the loud prayers, I think that would hurt the heartfelt prayers, God knows what they mean and God is the only one they should worry about.

One thing I get really irritated about is when on this site, we spend a chunk of time talking to people, explaining that we don’t pray to the saints, not the way you mean and some self-righteous Catholic comes along and says I certainly do pray to the saints. It really doesn’t help the understanding along at all.
 
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