Is this a sin

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Intrigued_Latin

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In my profession, I frequently have to negotiate contracts and agreements. Most of the time it’s done via e-mail but on occasion it is done face to face.

Sometimes my tactics are diversion while other times I bluff the opponent into thinking something that their competitor is offering so that they will concede and offer it to me.

Is this bluff considered a sin. Ultimately I have told a lie.
 
Did you actually say something knew was false, or did you merely imply/warn of a legitimate possibility, and the other guy made his own inference?

It would be legitimate to say, “I anticipate (or am entertaining) other offers.” Lying if you say, “x competitor offered me this” and it is not true.

Lying is a sin, but that does not mean you are required to tip your hand in every instance.

Scott
 
Unless you out and Lie to them to deceive them I do not thinks its a lie. But I would bring it to confession and talk to a priest, only you and him can really say.
 
Intrigued Latin:
Sometimes my tactics are diversion while other times I bluff the opponent into thinking something that their competitor is offering so that they will concede and offer it to me.
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Stop bluffing. If your client calls your bluff, then your creditability is shot. If you have to make up something about your competor instead of showing how your product is superior, you might want to reconsider your line of business.

Remember, you shall not bear false witness.
 
Intrigued Latin:
In my profession, I frequently have to negotiate contracts and agreements. Most of the time it’s done via e-mail but on occasion it is done face to face.

Sometimes my tactics are diversion while other times I bluff the opponent into thinking something that their competitor is offering so that they will concede and offer it to me.

Is this bluff considered a sin. Ultimately I have told a lie.
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First of all, whether it is done face-to-face or via e-mail is irrelevant. We communicate in a variety of ways – with speech, writing, or body language as the most common examples. If you ask me, “Who broke the vase?” and I answer by pointing to someone who I know didn’t do it, then I have lied, even though I said no words at all.

We can also lie by implying something other than we are actually saying with our words. If I tell you that I “have been with” a particular woman on several occasions, implying that we had sexual intercourse even though we had just in the same room together at a few business meetings, I’ve lied. (If you simply misunderstood me, that’s not a lie – only if I intend for you to misunderstand.)

Even if you avoid telling a direct lie, if you say something with the intention of making someone believe something that isn’t true, you have lied.
 
I think you are merely applying semantics to rationalize your negotiating technique - and I think you realize that or you would not have posed the question.

Bluffing, lying, omitting details to win a contract, implying things, or whatever you want to call it- I would have to say that just really equates to a shade of dishonesty.

And in the long haul, your tactics will be shown for what they are and cost you business. What goes around comes around, and such like that.

Sounds like you are made of better fiber than that, my friend.
 
I’m in the military and deception is a military tactic. We lie to the enemy so they will not know our plans. Is that a sin?
 
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itsjustdave1988:
I’m in the military and deception is a military tactic. We lie to the enemy so they will not know our plans. Is that a sin?
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Of course not. To tell a lie, either directly or by failure to tell the truth wneh it is expected, has another component, and that is that the person it is told to has a right to the information.

Your enemy has no right to the information whatsoever.

As to sales: the same applies. Real Estate sales, regulated by the state, may require certain disclosures. It also requires that certain information be withheld; specifically, anything which would weaken your party’s bargaining position which is not specifically mandated to be disclosed. For example, you represent one of the parties, and the other wants to know if you are willing to move (up or down) on the price. You may have a duty to not disclose that. The same could be said for other types of sales; so the issue gets to whether or not the other person has a right to know the information. Some call this bluffing. Some call bluffing lying, on the mistaken assumption that if you are negotiating, the other side has a right to know everything. They don’t always have that right. It would, however, be a lie to state something that is not true (“your competitor is offering us more”, when the competitor has not made an offer).
 
Hmmmm… let me give a hypothetical example…

Let’s say my country has invented the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. See an artist’s rendition of this hypothetical system, here:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Let’s say we decide to deploy this strictly defensive weapon on a spacecraft, but we told the world that it was a communications satellite.

Do you think that form of deception would be immoral? I’m not merely keeping information from them that they do not have a right to know, but I’m actually telling them it’s a communcations satellite, when it is not. This form of deception keeps technical details from our adversaries such that they cannot develop, what would actually be rather simple countermeasures to negate the effectiveness of the system, if it were to be used in combat.

If they knew what it really was, when I needed to use it in defense of my country, I would be expecting a kaboom … an earth shattering kaboom, except it wouldn’t work.

So, is it okay to lie about what is on my spacecraft so that a defense system might function as intended in combat, if necessary?

I must emphasize, that the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator is still several years away from actually being deployed on a spacecraft, capable of an earth-shattering kaboom. 😃
 
Do they have a right to know what is on the spacecraft? No, you have no moral duty to tell you enemy what you weapons are, or their capability. No moral duty, therefore, using the term “lie,” is an incorrect term as it implies a duty to tell.

Cute little bugger. Wish I could make one too.
 
Do they have a right to know what is on the spacecraft?
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No strict right, however, we signed the Outer Space Treaty in the Eisenhower Administration (I think) and it specifies that we register the spacecraft and state the purpose of the spacecraft.

Would the Treaty create the “right” to know the purpose of the spacecraft?

BTW we would “communicate” with the spacecraft, but it is not a truly a “communications spacecraft.”
 
That’s an interesting bend on the question. It seems to me that lying in self defense is different from lying to make a profit of somebody. If a guy were to come into my house wanting to kill everyone and ask me if anyone else were home, I would lie to him in hopes of saving my family. That’s different from lying about the condition of my car in order to obtain a higher price for it.

If lying about military information would prevent an enemy from attacking my country where it was most vulnerable, I would think the lie would be justified.

However, if we had signed a treaty with another country promising to reveal defense information, we would be morally obligated to do so according to the terms of the agreement. Having reaped the rewards of the treaty in terms of receiving information about the other countries who signed it, such information would be the fair price that we would be oblidged to pay.

Supposing there is no such agreement, it would be better to simply acknowledge that there are things we aren’t telling them. But, when we have reason to believe an enemy is spying, I see no problem with putting false information in their path as a decoy. Again, in that case, it’s a defensive measure against information theft.
 
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otm:
Do they have a right to know what is on the spacecraft? No, you have no moral duty to tell you enemy what you weapons are, or their capability. No moral duty, therefore, using the term “lie,” is an incorrect term as it implies a duty to tell.

Cute little bugger. Wish I could make one too.
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One can lie even when one has no duty to tell. Suppose I am trying to sell my house to you and you ask me whether or not anyone else has made any offers. I could say, “I prefer to keep that confidential at this time.” Or, I could talk about whatever offers had been made. But I could not morally lie and say, “There is a guy who offered me $1.3 million, and I have to give him my answer by 4 p.m. today.”
 
I’m confused, now is it my Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator? or does it have to be your bull? You can get a good look at a butcher by…wow, Tommy.

I think a better question is doesn’t this guy ever get tired?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
In a jab at casuistry, all you would have to do would be to route an oldies radio station through the space module and right back into your office in order to (in a Jesuit sense) honestly term it a communications satellite.

On a more serious note, I think there’s definitely a distinction to be made between withholding information and disseminating false information (which the space module may do).
 
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