Is this heretical thinking?

[pprimeau1976]

I talked about this briefly in another thread, but thought I should ask again. I asked whether God created all souls at once or created them one at a time as we are concieved.

Knowing that a soul does not pre-exist prior to our conception, I questioned whether it is heretical (or even possible) to believe that all the souls were created at once and yet not pre-exist prior to our conception. My rationale was that God does not follow a past, present, future timeline. Jesus’ death paid for the price of Adam’s sin and my sins in a single action. Could not all of the human souls have been created in a single action?

This may sound silly that I would even care, but another question came to me today. If all the human souls were not created at once, and instead are created one at a time in a series of creative acts by God, wouldn’t our doctrine of original sin imply that an imperfect soul was created?

What do you think? Should I cut out the or what?

 

[JimG]

I talked about this briefly in another thread, but thought I should ask again. I asked whether God created all souls at once or created them one at a time as we are concieved.

The answer is yes.

Yes, God creates each soul individually at the instant of conception.

Yes, since God does not exist in time, and perceives all times at once, from His perspective, He creates all souls at once.

 

[JimG]

I have one. If I choose whether or not to procreate, have I taken part in the creation, or lack there of, of a soul?

Yes.

 

[Della]

Humans beings are not spirit only creatures, as are the angels. We are a composite of flesh and spirit. IOW, the body without the spirit (soul) is dead, and the spirit without its body is a ghost. God does not create ghosts but human beings. And he creates them in time, not in eternity, even if he has us in mind from all eternity.

We are each born with the stain of original sin because our parents, Adam and Eve, passed on this defect to their offspring. Original sin is not actual sin (sin we commit ourselves) but rather the inclination to sin, which is an entirely different thing.

 

[puzzleannie]

The answer is yes.

Yes, God creates each soul individually at the instant of conception.

Yes, since God does not exist in time, and perceives all times at once, from His perspective, He creates all souls at once.

actually, the Church is silent on the exact moment when the newly conceived person is conceived with the soul, and it is still open for theological reflection, but since we don’t know with certainty, we err on the side of caution and treat every person as ensouled and fully human from the moment of conception.

 

[Other_Eric]

The question itself is heretical in that it erroneously assumes a false dichotomy between the body and the soul.

 

[Other_Eric]

What happens to the soul when the body dies?

The soul, at death, exists in an unnatural state that awaits correction at the Resurrection.

 

[Other_Eric]

Nice.

True.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Humans beings are not spirit only creatures, as are the angels. We are a composite of flesh and spirit. IOW, the body without the spirit (soul) is dead, and the spirit without its body is a ghost. God does not create ghosts but human beings. And he creates them in time, not in eternity, even if he has us in mind from all eternity.

I understand all that. However, there is a point that the soul and the body separate until the time of the resurrection. I understand that they are created in time, but if one redeeming act (Christ;s death and resurrection) could redeem all human souls, past and present, couldn’t one action creative act create all human souls as well?

We are each born with the stain of original sin because our parents, Adam and Eve, passed on this defect to their offspring. Original sin is not actual sin (sin we commit ourselves) but rather the inclination to sin, which is an entirely different thing.

I understand what original sin in the context you describe but I question that original sin is simply the inclination to sin. For Baptism washes away the original sin, but the inclination is still there. Assuming that my soul was created apart from Adam’s soul, why does his sin have any effect on me? I am under the assumption that my soul’s existence is a direct result of God’s creative action and that my body is a result of my parent’s creative action. Or am I wrong in this assumption?

If the creation of body AND soul is a result of my parents reproductive act, is my soul therefore made of pieces of my parents’ soul, like my body is made from pieces of my parent’s body (sperm and egg)? I can understand Original Sin if this were the case.

 

[JimG]

actually, the Church is silent on the exact moment when the newly conceived person is conceived with the soul, and it is still open for theological reflection, but since we don’t know with certainty, we err on the side of caution and treat every person as ensouled and fully human from the moment of conception.

You are right that the Church is silent on this issue.

But the soul is the animating principle of the body. And human beings are a composite of body and soul. Biologically, a new individual of the human species has its beginning at conception. Since that is our biological beginning, and we are human, I conclude that the soul is present as the animating principle from that moment.

 

[pprimeau1976]

actually, the Church is silent on the exact moment when the newly conceived person is conceived with the soul, and it is still open for theological reflection, but since we don’t know with certainty, we err on the side of caution and treat every person as ensouled and fully human from the moment of conception.

That’s misunderstanding the question. Of course, from our perspective, they would be created at our conception. However, did God create all souls in one act is a different question. There is no doubt that he redeemed all souls through history in one moment in history.

 

[pprimeau1976]

You are right that the Church is silent on this issue.

But the soul is the animating principle of the body. And human beings are a composite of body and soul. Biologically, a new individual of the human species has its beginning at conception. Since that is our biological beginning, and we are human, I conclude that the soul is present as the animating principle from that moment.

Thank you for bringing that up. So is the human soul made of parts of the parents’ soul? Would we thus inherit original sin like someone inherits a genetic trait like blonde hair?

 

[pprimeau1976]

The question itself is heretical in that it erroneously assumes a false dichotomy between the body and the soul.

Is the dichotomy false? I am not assuming gnostic beliefs like the soul is good and the body is evil. I understand that the two were meant to be together. However, the soul and the body separate. The soul doesn’t hang around the body after death, does it?

 

[mosher]

Thank you for bringing that up. So is the human soul made of parts of the parents’ soul? Would we thus inherit original sin like someone inherits a genetic trait like blonde hair?

Yes and no. Because the soul is the animating principle of the body it has a connection with the biology of a person that is intimate in effect no dichotomy as has been said earlier. Because of this unity of body-soul there is inherited traits and there is no reason to believe that these traits exist in the moral as well as the physical. However, it is an error to say that the soul is made of parts since it is pure spirit it has no parts and thus cannot be created from other souls or some other generation from the parents souls. Rather it is the biological that influences the spiritual.

Is the dichotomy false? I am not assuming gnostic beliefs like the soul is good and the body is evil. I understand that the two were meant to be together. However, the soul and the body separate. The soul doesn’t hang around the body after death, does it?

Yes it is a false dichotomy. This is why death is not natural to the human person it is tearing of that which was not intended to be torn.

 

[Other_Eric]

Is the dichotomy false? I am not assuming gnostic beliefs like the soul is good and the body is evil. I understand that the two were meant to be together. However, the soul and the body separate. The soul doesn’t hang around the body after death, does it?

I can separate your hands from your body, and you would be able to continue on (though perhaps not post here at the forums) but you would not say that therefore your hands were an element separate from the rest of your body. The separation of the soul from the body is an unnatural event as pointed out previously.

 

[JimG]

Thank you for bringing that up. So is the human soul made of parts of the parents’ soul? Would we thus inherit original sin like someone inherits a genetic trait like blonde hair?

The human soul is not made of parts of the parents’ souls. Human souls have no parts. That is why the soul must be directly created by God. But human beings are a composite of body and soul. We are not a just a duality of two things put together. Body and soul are united into a single entity. The ONLY way that they can be separated is by forcibly ripping them apart–that is, by death.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I can separate your hands from your body, and you would be able to continue on (though perhaps not post here at the forums) but you would not say that therefore your hands were an element separate from the rest of your body. The separation of the soul from the body is an unnatural event as pointed out previously.

OK, I see what you mean by false dichotomy. But I think that we have a misunderstanding of the term. The soul and the body are an element of a human being. The body can exist without the soul, it just will be a dead body. Likewise the hand will still exist apart from my arm. It just will eventually cease to be a hand once it starts to decay and smell up my house.

Now, this is turning into a philosophical question, because we can go into what it REALLY means to exist - but I think that would take another thread or a whole other message board.

 

[pprimeau1976]

OK, this thread started with trying to explain how original sin affects the soul and how God could create a soul that is imperfect. It’s my understanding from Genesis that God made all things good.

My possible explanation for original sin staining the soul was that God created all souls in one action in a perfected state (i.e) to be good and immediately infused these souls into all concieved human organisms throughout history at the same time. This is according to the perception of God, since He transcends time. Adam’s sin, since he was a part of this batch of souls affected the entire batch, and thus every soul recieved this mark of original sin soon after conception. This is pure speculation, and if the Church teaches definitively or to the contrary, the case is closed and my silly speculations can be buried.

As this thread continued, I thought that this idea is silly and thought that maybe the reason for original sin is that our soul somehow originates from our parents soul. The idea of what I was thinking of is called generationism. Generationism is defined in a Catholic Encyclopedia article on Traducianism:

When a distinction is made between the terms Traducianism and Generationism, the former denotes the materialistic doctrine of the transmission of the soul by the organic process of generation, while the latter applies to the doctrine according to which the soul of the offspring originates from the parental soul in some mysterious way analogous to that in which the organism originates from the parent’s organism.

According to another article on Creationism, the belief that God alone creates the soul from nothing, the Church leans toward Creationism, but never declared it dogmatically:

It should, however, be noted that while there are no such explicit definitions authoritatively put forth by the Church as would warrant our calling the doctrine of Creationism de fide, nevertheless, as a recent eminent theologian observes, “there can be no doubt as to which view is favoured by ecclesiastical authority” (Pesch, Præl. Dogm., V, 3, p. 66). Leo IX (1050), in the symbol presented to the Bishop Peter for subscription, lays down: “I believe and profess that the soul is not a part of God, but is created out of nothing, and that, without baptism, it is in orginal sin” (Denzingerr, Enchir., n. 296).

Since the online version of Catholic Encyclopedia is the 1917 version, have their been any developments in Creationism vs. Generationism debate since then? Has the church made a definitive decision?

As I reflect on this issue, I remember that God blew the breath of life into Adam’s nostrils, which I interpret as the act of infusing Adam with a soul. However, God did not do this with Eve, He simply formed her out of Adam’s rib. Wouldn’t this hint toward Generationism since she was made from a part of Adam and did not (as far as we know) have the breath of life blown into her nostrils?

 

[DJim]

From Pope Pius XII’s “Humani Generis”, 1950:

1. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - **for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. **

The answer to the question is, yes, the Catholic faith requires a belief in the “immediate” creation of the soul by God.

This is stated in opposition to any false thinking regarding “evolution” of the soul, I realize, but likely makes clear that the creation of the soul coincides with the first moment of existence of the human person, for without a soul we are not human.

Likewise, without a body we are not fully human, which is why it is most sensible to say that the conception of body and creation of soul happen together.

One thing seems clear–the “pre-existence” of the human soul (as in disembodied “spirits” “waiting” for a body…) really has no place in Catholic teaching…

Hope this helps,

DJim