Is this Hocus Pocus Justice?

[Pickles2009]

I don’t know anymore what to believe in in terms of the justice system in my country.

I had been fired from work, merely at the whim of our manager. Being deemed as an “independent contractor”—I was given no right to know what fault I had (if ever)…I had no right to defend myself because I was simply given a firing letter and 10 whole days to finish my work and leave.

Being an “independent contractor” they thought that they can do anything they want even out of a whim …simply because I had no rights.

I disagreed. I had 30 (or more) hard evidences showing that ALL elements of employeeship existed even if I was called an independent contractor.

I had a company ID, I bundy clocked to work, my pay got reduced for being late, I got payslips, I was made to attend seminars at the request of the company for the company’s benefit, their business is my work (you don’t have to stretch your imagination for a connection)…In short, if I don’t go to work, they had no business. I could not even be absent without getting a replacement.

They ask me to go overtime without extra pay. I had no benefits that the employees enjoyed like social security and medical insurance!

Despite 30 pieces of evidences…the labor arbiter (after more than 2 years of deliberation)—simply because of many postposnements of hearing many of which came from the respondents)…still found that I was no employee somply because of the contract I signed which stated that I was just an “independent contractor”. The labor arbiter did not even mention (or negated) the 30 pieces of evidences I presented. It was as if they did not see, hear the “roar” of the “tsunami of evidences”. I did not just present a trickle of evidences…it was a huge wave! …and they saw NOTHING!

Simply put…because of the contract…I had no rights. I was in effect told that the company could “slap” me in the face without knowing why. I felt that the labor arbiter “slapped” me as well with her decision.

I feel so frustrated that justice seems to grind so slow. Where is the saying: “Justice delayed is justice denied?” here?

I would have believed them better if they went through each and every piece of evidence and negated each and every one of them when they made their decision. Aren’t decisions of court based on evidences presented and should be clear and based on existing laws? I don’t see how any of this was applied in my case.

Today, I feel the pain of protracted justice…I need an operation badly but I have to wait because I have no imedical insurance, no social security to back me up.

So much injustice…I don’t know how much more I can take.

 

[GrahamAPhone]

…because of the contract…

what kind of contract?

 

[LilyM]

I had no benefits that the employees enjoyed like social security and medical insurance!

Well, that’s one pretty compelling piece of evidence right there that you weren’t in fact an employee - if you didn’t have the rights to social security and insurance from the company, then what makes you think you had the right to the same termination procedures as the employees?

Yes, your ‘piece of paper’ (which as a contract is a legally binding document and an AGREEMENT of employment between yourself and your employer that you had the obligation and the opportunity to read before you signed it) said you were an independent contractor. Most likely it said a whole lot more than that, though. Every ‘piece of paper’ I’ve had from an employer, casual or otherwise, has said a WHOLE lot more.

Most likely, as with every employer I’ve ever had, the ‘piece of paper’ SPECIFICALLY contained provisions about how, when and why you could be terminated. Most likely it said in exactly so many words that the company had the right to dismiss you on ten days’ notice and that they were not required to give you reasons why. This is what all my casual employment agreements have said.

When you signed that contract you gave consent to being employed by the company on the terms they specified. In other words by signing it you agreed with them that they could dismiss you on ten days’ notice without furnishing reasons. So clearly you either failed to read it (and its commonsense to read EVERYTHING before you sign) or else you signed it without agreeing to its terms. Why sign something you’ve either not read or don’t want to be bound by? Since you DID sign it and agree to it, why are you surprised that you are held to its terms?

If the law of your country is anything like the law of mine - Australia - then even being an employee doesn’t automatically give you the right to reasons for dismissal. I’ve been what’s called a ‘casual’ employee, meaning I could indeed be dismissed at any time without reasons.

Company ID? Of course you had company ID - without it you couldn’t be in the pay system or use the computer system or have access to the workplace, most likely. So independent contractors would have them as well. An ID has nothing to do with the conditions of your employment. I’ve been a casual employee, liable like you to be dismissed without notice or reasons, and had company ID.

You attended seminars at the company’s request for their benefit, you say? Is there any reason you can’t use what you’ve learned in those seminars to benefit future employers as well? Most likely you can - if so it’s NOT like you just attended those seminars for the company’s benefit, is it?

Finally - arbitration is NOT the same thing as a court hearing. Arbitrators are NOT bound by the same rules that judges in court are. This all was probably explained to you before the process or arbitration happened. Meaning that they do NOT have to address every piece of evidence specifically.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I don’t know anymore what to believe in in terms of the justice system in my country.

I had been fired from work, merely at the whim of our manager. Being deemed as an “independent contractor”—I was given no right to know what fault I had (if ever)…I had no right to defend myself because I was simply given a firing letter and 10 whole days to finish my work and leave.

Being an “independent contractor” they thought that they can do anything they want even out of a whim …simply because I had no rights.

I disagreed. I had 30 (or more) hard evidences showing that ALL elements of employeeship existed even if I was called an independent contractor.

I had a company ID, I bundy clocked to work, my pay got reduced for being late, I got payslips, I was made to attend seminars at the request of the company for the company’s benefit, their business is my work (you don’t have to stretch your imagination for a connection)…In short, if I don’t go to work, they had no business. I could not even be absent without getting a replacement.

They ask me to go overtime without extra pay. I had no benefits that the employees enjoyed like social security and medical insurance!

Despite 30 pieces of evidences…the labor arbiter (after more than 2 years of deliberation)—simply because of many postposnements of hearing many of which came from the respondents)…still found that I was no employee somply because of the contract I signed which stated that I was just an “independent contractor”. The labor arbiter did not even mention (or negated) the 30 pieces of evidences I presented. It was as if they did not see, hear the “roar” of the “tsunami of evidences”. I did not just present a trickle of evidences…it was a huge wave! …and they saw NOTHING!

Simply put…because of the contract…I had no rights. I was in effect told that the company could “slap” me in the face without knowing why. I felt that the labor arbiter “slapped” me as well with her decision.

I feel so frustrated that justice seems to grind so slow. Where is the saying: “Justice delayed is justice denied?” here?

I would have believed them better if they went through each and every piece of evidence and negated each and every one of them when they made their decision. Aren’t decisions of court based on evidences presented and should be clear and based on existing laws? I don’t see how any of this was applied in my case.

Today, I feel the pain of protracted justice…I need an operation badly but I have to wait because I have no imedical insurance, no social security to back me up.

So much injustice…I don’t know how much more I can take.

im sorry pickles, it isnt easy. employers routinely treat the people who work for them with the barest legal requirements. i dont know your legal claim, and i dont care. youre a person and you deserve to have your concerns treated justly. if they didnt tell you why you were let go, they are probably trying to avoid a legal claim. id get a lawyer.

 

[puzzleannie]

I
Being an “independent contractor” they thought that they can do anything they want even out of a whim …simply because I had no rights.

I disagreed. I had 30 (or more) hard evidences showing that ALL elements of employeeship existed even if I was called an independent contractor.

I had a company ID, I bundy clocked to work, my pay got reduced for being late, I got payslips, I was made to attend seminars at the request of the company for the company’s benefit, their business is my work (you don’t have to stretch your imagination for a connection)…In short, if I don’t go to work, they had no business. I could not even be absent without getting a replacement.
.

the IRS has strict rules on who is an outside contractor and who is an employee and at least some of these, if true, violate those rules. It probably won’t get your job back but you could contact your local IRS office for clarification.

 

[PAboy57]

Pickles2009,

I hope and will pray that you find new employment.

MEMORARE,
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful.
O mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen

 

[Pickles2009]

what kind of contract?

Its a “Memorandum of Agreement” contract which they made (I had no part in making it)…I just signed it.

My lawyer said that it was something like a “Contract of Adhesion”.

The labor arbiter more or less said that I should have known what I was signing.

I took offense in this because I believe "It takes two to sign a contract. Why give me the brunt of implementing the contract when they were the ones who made the contract, called me an “independent contractor” but treated me like an employee! THEY (the respondents) should have also known who they were signing up for (an “independent contractor”) and they should have known hown not treat an independent contractor like an employee.

For one thing, an independent contractor does not have the same contract working 5-6 days a week for more than 5 years straight, renewed without fail.

 

[Pickles2009]

Pickles2009,

I hope and will pray that you find new employment.

MEMORARE,
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful.
O mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen

Thank you. I really need prayers now.

Fighting a legal battle without a job—no salary, but I have to pay the lawyer for legal fees and papers and documents…plus the justice system grinding ever so slowly…then I have to have this major operation soon.

My lawyer said that reaching up to Supreme Court can reach 6 years! Can a jobless, penniless worker really wait that long? I really feel the impunity of it all.

Doctor said my postponement of the operation depends on how long I can stand the pain…

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

I’m sorry you were laid off and I hope you find good alternate employment soon.

The logical fallacy on this thread is the presumption that contract law is part of our justice system – it is not. It is not even discussed in a court of equity (where what is ‘just’ happens) but in law courts. There’s a difference between the two.

Our tax system and the requirements on employers created the legal fiction about who is an ‘employee’ legally, and who is not. Folks who work as ‘independent contractors’ are victims of this fiction, as they often are not aware of just what they are getting into. Legally, an employer with six employees can discriminate on the basis of religion, but an employer with 20 employees would be violating federal law if it did so. There’s nothing just about that. Results may change under state law.

So, the question as to your situation is not if your treatment was just or fair, but if the rules were followed correctly.

 

[Corki]

I’m sorry you were laid off and I hope you find good alternate employment soon.

The logical fallacy on this thread is the presumption that contract law is part of our justice system – it is not. It is not even discussed in a court of equity (where what is ‘just’ happens) but in law courts. There’s a difference between the two.

**Our tax system and the requirements on employers created the legal fiction about who is an ‘employee’ legally, and who is not. Folks who work as ‘independent contractors’ are victims of this fiction, as they often are not aware of just what they are getting into. **Legally, an employer with six employees can discriminate on the basis of religion, but an employer with 20 employees would be violating federal law if it did so. There’s nothing just about that. Results may change under state law.

So, the question as to your situation is not if your treatment was just or fair, but if the rules were followed correctly.

Often that is true. Many employers use the independant contractor status to avoid taxes and benefits.

However, even as an employee, the company has the right to let him/her go for any non-prohibited reason or no reason at all. In the US, employees who do not have a contract are considered employees-at-will meaning that either the employer or the employee can end the employment relationship at any time. Being considered a contractor did not remove an obligation for the employer to terminate only for a cause since that obligation doesn’t exist for regular employees either.

Pickles 2009, I am sorry that this is happening to you. I hope you find new employment soon and are able to get the medical care you need.

 

[Corki]

the IRS has strict rules on who is an outside contractor and who is an employee and at least some of these, if true, violate those rules. It probably won’t get your job back but you could contact your local IRS office for clarification.

Anybody can be hired as a contractor. The IRS doesn’t care much about that as long as the taxes are being paid. The IRS rules apply to who is considered an independant contractor.