Is this Mass OK?

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I have yet to see anyone show me that the bishops of the US, each of whom have numerous parishes under their authority, and likely have numerous “Children’s’ Christmas Masses”, are completely and unambiguously ignorant of how those Masses are conducted - meaning, the inclusion of the children in activities during Mass such as is the subject of this thread.

Meaning, if that is not clear; I have yet to see anyone show that the priest herein, or others who have done and do similar things, are disobedient to their bishop.

It may be your opinion that such priests are being disobedient to their bishop; but other than an expressed opinion, I fail to see any proof of disobedience.

And please spare me any partial quotes from the GIRM. I have read it numerous times.
 
otjm said:
I have yet to see anyone show me that the bishops of the US, each of whom have numerous parishes under their authority, and likely have numerous “Children’s’ Christmas Masses”, are completely and unambiguously ignorant of how those Masses are conducted - meaning, the inclusion of the children in activities during Mass such as is the subject of this thread.
And please spare me any partial quotes from the GIRM. I have read it numerous times.
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No one said that children cannot be included, but, as you well know, only a priest or deacon can give the homily, so it cannot be delegated to the children. And other actions are to be done in the pause after Holy Communion ( which is sometimes used for announcements).

No ‘partial quotes’ from the GIRM needed. Just the GIRM itself.
 
You spoke of obedience. I stand on my comment - I don’t think the bishops are naive or ignorant, and they are allowing this to continue (it has a history; this isn’t something brand new). Your problem is with the bishops, with whom it appears you disagree.

And that is fine; I do not always agree with calls the bishops make - including some statements from the USCCB. This is by no means an isolated nor a new case. Some people like it; some are neutral, some don’t like it.

This is a bit akin to threads on holding hands; 50 years later people are still insisting that this is outside the GIRM and abhor the matter; the bishops are thoroughly aware of the matter, and it continues. I most strongly suspect the bishops are well aware of the Children’s Christmas Mass, and it continues.

Maybe we can all find something else to discuss. As it appears that this is not a matter of obedience, you and I disagree.
 
I keep seeing everyone reference the GIRM.

Those that are do realize that the “G” means “general”.

While these are instructions, they are “General”, Bishops can decide how they are implemented in their diocese.

And anyone who thinks Bishops don’t know what is going on in their own dioceses really isn’t thinking. :roll_eyes:
 
CilladeRoma said:
While these are instructions, they are “General”, Bishops can decide how they are implemented in their diocese.
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Would you kindly point me to the official statement that supports this? The Canon or the Rubric?
 
It says as much in the GIRM itself.
And, the Ordinary is the Chief liturgist for the diocese. There are things he can dispense or enforce as he see fit, for his flock.
I cannot sight chapter & verse, it is all knowledge acquired while studying for my Master’s in Theology.

I suggest reading the GIRM, and the Code of Canon Law with respect to Bishops & Pastors.
 
Yet, when one makes a claim they bear the burden of documenting that claim in a serious debate. It is okay to say “I do not know, that is my interpretation” or something along those lines.
 
I believe I did so. I did not quote said Bishop, I relayed a conversation I have had with him, and others, many times. I’m sorry if my lived experience is not good enough.
I don’t agree with you on this matter, let’s leave it at that.
 
I was asking for the document that says a Bishop is free to ignore the Rubrics.
 
I never said the Bishop was allowed to ignore the rubrics.
What I said was the liturgy is the competency of the Ordinary of the Diocese.
The Bishop, by his office, is the Chief liturgist of his diocese and can interpret the rubrics as he sees fit for his diocese.
 
CilladeRoma said:
I keep seeing everyone reference the GIRM.

Those that are do realize that the “G” means “general”.

While these are instructions, they are “General”, Bishops can decide how they are implemented in their diocese.

And anyone who thinks Bishops don’t know what is going on in their own dioceses really isn’t thinking. :roll_eyes:
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I have personal experience that such is not the case.

A parish that I used to belong to had a custom. On the Feast of the Holy Family, the pastor would call up a family to give the homily.

I asked the pastor about that, and he directed me to the parish Liturgist, the employee who planned out the liturgies.

He said how he wanted to involved families more and that this was an acceptable way of doing so.

I disagreed and wrote a letter to the bishop. The bishop responded to the parish, instructing them to cease this practice, and that only a priest or a deacon may give the homily, and specifically referenced the same GIRM entry that we have been discussing.

So no, the bishop did NOT know about this particular practice. And when he was made aware of it.

That would be my counsel to the OP, write the bishop and describe what you experience.

As far as the ‘G’ meaning ‘General’. that means that it applies to all diocese of the Roman Rite.

If you disagree, go and Google on why the US dioceses do not allow EMHC’s to purify the vessels.
 
Again, we are conflating 2 different things here.

In my diocese, the former Bishop allowed lay people, in certain circumstances to preach.
Many people tried to go over his head, and it never worked. He, as the ordinary, while maybe not prudent, had the right to make the decision as to who could preach and when. Our new Bishop has changed this policy.

As far as purification goes, that came from the Vatican, along with a long list of other things that were to be reprobated.

Again, I am not going to argue. Bishops have latitude. Do they know everything, probably not, but I am willing to bet the farm that they know a whole lot more than they are being given credit for in this forum. :roll_eyes:
 
The GIRM also comes from the Vatican.

As does Redeptionis Sacramentum

Specifically RS 65 and 66

[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.[145] This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.

If your previous bishop allowed that, knowing of the GIRM and RS, he acted disobediently.
 
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