Ishmael and Isaac

[Coder]

meedo:

I think sacrificing any of your sons ios hard . Bineg away doesnt Make it less harder . Specially if you see that son from tiem to time and that was yr first born .

The “only one” argument is not a key point since the scripture makes it clear that both Ishmael and Isaac were alive so “only one” does not refer to “how many”. So we must base it on the context. Gen 22:1 says “Some time after these events…”. So this appears to be sometime after Hagar and Ishmael had left Abraham. So therefore “only one” would seem to refer more to Isaac since again it does not make sense to take “only one” literally anyway since both were already born.

 

[jjwilkman]

meedo:

Bereishit 16

1. And He said, “Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you.”

i don’t want to nit pick, is this a true quote? if so,
"your only son, the one whom you love, yea, isaac…

i noticed, that’s all…in any case, it might not matter

 

[The_Eurasian]

meedo:

That doesnt fly . If it was the case he wouldnt have needed to specify him by Isaac. If it is well known and clear that by mentioning the word only son then that means your cuurrently near in the neighborhood son . Then why need mention Isaac at all?!

Isaac was mentioned because God Who is all knowing knew that more than 600 year later into the future, Muslims will say that it was Ishmael who was about to be sacrificed.

 

[Coder]

meedo:

I think sacrificing any of your sons ios hard . Bineg away doesnt Make it less harder . Specially if you see that son from tiem to time and that was yr first born .

True. That’s why we need to discern what is meant by “only one, whom you love”. If Abraham loved both sons, then this scripture seems to prompt us to search for the deeper meaning.

Jesus wants to draw all people to Him so we can end all division and unite God’s family in love. Jesus seeks all, Jews, Muslims, even pagans, to come to Him.

It is His love that fulfills us. If we really want to understand scripture then we can pray to Jesus to open our minds and hearts to the truth of scripture. If a person (e.g. a Muslim) is not sure about Jesus, then pray with an open heart to God to show you the truth. Only God can truly show us the way and the truth. He allows others to help us of course but our spiritual relationship with God is the true goal.

 

[hawk]

meedo:

Now the first Point I refuted before - The home issue
The second point is irrelevant to the sacrifice.
The third point is not valid because this isnt a Jewish creed. The incarnation of God .and since we are quoting the Tanack . We are looking with Jewish eyes and understanding and not christian.

That is ridiculous, you are talking to Christians not jews
you see we beleive that the Bible and revelation have a logical flow, this sort of connection is typical of what makes the Bible divinely inspired, pieces connect to point to Jesus, almost 3000 years later.

Now i would like to say that we dont take things that are irrelevant to the incident and show it as evidence. There was a covenant with ishmael but this is irrelevant to the essence of the sacrifice

Simply put . as the torah said.

Sacrefice was a test . a test needed a very dear thing that cannot be replaced. Simply an ONLY child waited for after long time.

Yes, but a test to what end?

I suggest you read the verses carefully they demonstrate the how the covenant is esatblish and through whom

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

17Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

I think this amply demonstrates the point that the covenant is wrought by the birth of Isaac.
And therefore it is obvious that Isaac is the chosen one, and not ishmael, though he too is to be made a great nation.

The TEST is considred a test by the hardships it bring and the emotions involved. Again, wouldnt it be much easier test after knwoing that he has two sons instead of one??! and he already he guaranteed oen of them to be a great nation?

Peace

It is not easy to kill any child, ever.

 

[hlgomez]

No, he is called only son ,since he is the only one with Abraham at that time.
Ishmael is legitimate, and Hagar is Abrahams wife, whom he leaves in the desert with Ishmael.

Since Ishmael is not at home, Isaac is the “only son”.

The Bible says:
Genesis 6:3
"Thus, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, his wife Sarai took her maid, Hagar the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his concubine. " (not wife)

Verse 20-21:
“As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation. But my covenant I will maintain with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you by this time next year.”

Genesis 21:12-13
Sarah noticed the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham playing with her son Isaac; so she demanded of Abraham: “Drive out that slave and her son! No son of that slave is going to share the inheritance with my son Isaac!”
But God said to Abraham: “Do not be distressed about the boy or about your slave woman. Heed the demands of Sarah, no matter what she is asking of you; for it is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name. As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a great nation of him also, since he too is your offspring.” (emphasis added)

Genesis 22:2
Then God said: “Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you.” Early the next morning Abraham saddled his donkey, took with him his son Isaac, and two of his servants as well, and with the wood that he had cut for the holocaust, set out for the place of which God had told him.

We must remember that Hagar and her son were driven out so the son that abraham took with him for sacrifice at Moriah was Isaac. Isaac was already born during this time and it’s very clear from the Bible. We just need to look back at the circumstances and piece them together.

Pio

 

[Reuben_J]

hlgomez:

Genesis 22:2
Then God said: “Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you.” Early the next morning Abraham saddled his donkey, took with him his son Isaac, and two of his servants as well, and with the wood that he had cut for the holocaust, set out for the place of which God had told him.

We must remember that Hagar and her son were driven out so the son that abraham took with him for sacrifice at Moriah was Isaac. Isaac was already born during this time and it’s very clear from the Bible. We just need to look back at the circumstances and piece them together.

To the Christians there is no doubt at all that Isaac was the son instead of Ishmael. It’s a non-issue. More so it is in the Bible. But since Muslims believe that it was Ishmael, then one of us must be wrong. That’s if Abraham didn’t do it twice, one for Ishmael and one for Isaac.

Judging by the importance that Muslims placed on the rememberance of this near sacrifice of Ishmael, an event that was not narrated in the Quran so I gather, I am rather puzzled.

Any Muslims care to explain?

Thanks.

Peace.

Reuben

 

[hlgomez]

To the Christians there is no doubt at all that Isaac was the son instead of Ishmael. It’s a non-issue. More so it is in the Bible. But since Muslims believe that it was Ishmael, then one of us must be wrong. That’s if Abraham didn’t do it twice, one for Ishmael and one for Isaac.

Judging by the importance that Muslims placed on the rememberance of this near sacrifice of Ishmael, an event that was not narrated in the Quran so I gather, I am rather puzzled.

Any Muslims care to explain?

Thanks.

Peace.

Reuben

Reuben,

You may have raised a good point, but I think the main idea here is the significance of that particular event of why Abraham was instructed by God to sacrifice his own son–and it says his only one, his beloved. Let’s not talk about whether it was Ishmael or Isaac if we cannot reconcile the passages.

Going back to the significance of the event at Moriah, to the Christian understanding and to what has been divinely revealed, God the Father make this event as a means of foreshadowing the sacrifice of his only Son, Jesus Christ on that very same mountain of Moriah. Abraham is noted to have said that the Lord will himself provide the sacrifice when Isaac asked him about it. And that sacrifice that God will provide at the appointed time will be his Only Son. Moriah is the very exact place that Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God was crucified as a sacrifice for our sins.

There is sound archaeological evidence to suppose that the place of the crucifixion of Jesus was at the summit of Mt. Moriah, probably near the present-day Damascus Gate and the Garden Tomb which would of course be a literal fulfillment of Abraham’s offering of Isaac when God said, “On the mount of the Lord it [the final offering for sin] will be provided.”

Pio

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Reuben J:

Judging by the importance that Muslims placed on the rememberance of this near sacrifice of Ishmael, an event that was not narrated in the Quran so I gather, I am rather puzzled.

Any Muslims care to explain?

Thanks.

Peace.

Reuben

Salaam Friend Reuben;
The event is indeed narrated in the Holy Qur’an. I posted something about it in the thread “Sacrifice in Islam”. But anyway, Here is a thourough article dealing with the subject.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[YADA]

The story of Abram/Abraham and Sarai/Sarah needs to be read in it’s entirety. That Abraham conceived a child with Hagar does not mean that Ishmael was the ‘long awaited’ son and therefore ‘the only’ son at the time of the test.

When Abraham was visited by three (a good topic for a Trinity descussion) angels, it was Sarah that was to be “with child” in her old age, not Hagar. It was ‘not waiting’ on the promises and providence of God (Allah) that resulted in the birth of Ishmael. Issac was the one taken for sacrifice, as scripture states. The long awaited son is not just Abraham’s but Abraham’s and Sarah’s.

I also believe that it is important to read scripture with and understanding of the poeple/times/places/understandings/culture from which they come. This is true for Hebrew texts, Chistian texts and Islamic texts.

Also, scripture is full of stories where the younger son inherits of receives blessings that would traditionally go to the elder son. In fact it surprising how often that occurrs! And yes, Abraham loved both his son’s as did God.

Pax Christe

 

[ronald]

hlgomez:

Reuben,

You may have raised a good point, but I think the main idea here is the significance of that particular event of why Abraham was instructed by God to sacrifice his own son–and it says his only one, his beloved. Let’s not talk about whether it was Ishmael or Isaac if we cannot reconcile the passages.

Going back to the significance of the event at Moriah, to the Christian understanding and to what has been divinely revealed, God the Father make this event as a means of foreshadowing the sacrifice of his only Son, Jesus Christ on that very same mountain of Moriah. Abraham is noted to have said that the Lord will himself provide the sacrifice when Isaac asked him about it. And that sacrifice that God will provide at the appointed time will be his Only Son. Moriah is the very exact place that Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God was crucified as a sacrifice for our sins.

There is sound archaeological evidence to suppose that the place of the crucifixion of Jesus was at the summit of Mt. Moriah, probably near the present-day Damascus Gate and the Garden Tomb which would of course be a literal fulfillment of Abraham’s offering of Isaac when God said, “On the mount of the Lord it [the final offering for sin] will be provided.”

Pio

that’s why i don’t want to leave Christ and to tell him just a prophet, God in Bible doesn’t only ordering but also acting by giving example. He became human, washed His creation’s foot and sacrificed. What a Great love He did.