Islam, Christianity and the minor corruptions in the Bible

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Perhaps you should seek out a scholar of hadith and have him teach you the science of hadith. Because you are asking for something that most Muslims do not know the details. You are asking about details which only a scholar would know.

If you actually read the Arabic of al Bukhari, he mentions the many chains of that hadith that you mention. Perhaps you should learn Arabic and then you will know teach chain that Al Bukhari mentions.
 
Perhaps you should seek out a scholar of hadith and have him teach you the science of hadith. Because you are asking for something that most Muslims do not know the details. You are asking about details which only a scholar would know.

If you actually read the Arabic of al Bukhari, he mentions the many chains of that hadith that you mention. Perhaps you should learn Arabic and then you will know teach chain that Al Bukhari mentions.
Well maybe if I had the time I might but for now I am content with what I know and asking muslims about the serious flaws in verifying the hadith, that i see.
 
Well maybe if I had the time I might but for now I am content with what I know and asking muslims about the serious flaws in verifying the hadith, that i see.
Because I have studied a little of it, I don’t see the flaws that you do.
 
Because I have studied a little of it, I don’t see the flaws that you do.
Then you better study much of it my friend. I know a very solid muslim scolar, fluent in Arabic, memorize the Quran, studied the hadits. A hardliner, and he became Christian, after he spend time studying the bible (for the purpose, at first to find flaws in Christianity). He knows Hebrew and Greek too. I know him personally. The way he was converted, not because of the bible verses, but from Quran verses. In fact, according to him, if Quran is interpreted objectively, should lead people to Christianity.
 
In fact, according to him, if Quran is interpreted objectively, should lead people to Christianity.
LOL…please ask your friend to come here and present his case.

I find this amazing. 🙂

I would love to see how Muhammad would point to His followers to go “back” to Christianity…
 
LOL…please ask your friend to come here and present his case.

I find this amazing. 🙂

I would love to see how Muhammad would point to His followers to go “back” to Christianity…
Surely you would LOL (I know that), since we are not discussing of him. No need to present him to this thread. Last time I was asking where the Jihadist verses came from when one of you said Muhammad never teach vengeange. I still don’t get any reasonable reply yet. One of you claim Muhammad prophethood solely based on Quran. When I ask the reason, I only get circular reasoning. Let’s LOL together …
 
Then you better study much of it my friend. I know a very solid muslim scolar, fluent in Arabic, memorize the Quran, studied the hadits. A hardliner, and he became Christian, after he spend time studying the bible (for the purpose, at first to find flaws in Christianity). He knows Hebrew and Greek too. I know him personally. The way he was converted, not because of the bible verses, but from Quran verses. In fact, according to him, if Quran is interpreted objectively, should lead people to Christianity.
Well there are many more knowledgeable Muslim scholars then him who have not converted…

I respect Orthodox Christianity and Catholic Christianity as independent religions (ie path to God). I have spent a year studying Orthodox Christianity as a catechumen. So I have a pretty good understanding of their beliefs and theology and practice.

However I do not believe the modern forms of these religions are the intended beliefs of Jesus. And I honestly believe they have deviated the Abrahamic faiths. Either Jews or Muslims, or any other Abrahamic faith holds the belief in God incarnate. There is no indication in the words of Jesus in the Gospels indicating such. There is nothing in the Quran or Old Testament indicating such. That is my belief based on my personal research and reflections on that research.

You are free to believe as you wish. And I hope pray that you be the best Christian that Jesus intended in his teachings.
 
sigh
to the OP you quoted what Jesus said, but you should read behind the lines.

"Matthew 5:33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: "

Jesus wasn’t rejecting the old testament commandments. He was elevating the people to a higher level beyond. For example he acknowledged that Divorce was allowed…for those people.
I believe there’s a higher wisdom in what Jesus was preaching…but you know that also depends on the recipients of his message.

Compare the followers of Jesus, to the wandering Israelites…and then compare the wandering israelites to the newly converted arabs.

Back to your original quote

Matthew 5:33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Good and Evil are very much subjective. The whole point of Paul’s teachings about the LAW in relation with Faith was to prove that the Law itself was not created to ‘conceal’ sin but to actually reveal the depths of darkness. An example of that to me as a muslim is how in islam…alcohol is forbidden though previously it wasn’t forbidden. So when a muslim consumes alcohol…he is not practicing evil anymore than people before…so what’s changed? it’s the consciousness of ‘sin’.
another valuable argument of Paul was that through the Law, darkness is revealed so God’s grace can be revealed.

I am a muslim but i do not strictly, absolutely…believe the religious texts are very specifically from God, not in absolute terms. I believe they are’ manifesting’ or dare i say this ‘channelling God’ into an intelligible form.
In many ways such texts are therefore specific to so much more context, the audience for example.

Though most muslims reject the bible or ‘parts of the bible that contradict the Quran’ it is a foolish thing since the Quran very clearly confirmed the Torah of the Jews and the Gospel of the Christians, in the PRESENT tense.
Yet as people say the sacrifice stories…contradict one another. what is that?

it’s another element to scripture.
Wisdom/Hikmah and so we’re told

(1) Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own (and indeed Allah answered their invocation by sending Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book (this Qur’an) and Al-Hikmah (full knowledge of the Islamic laws and jurisprudence or wisdom or Prophethood), and purify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #129


(2) And He (Allah) will teach him ('Îsa (Jesus)] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom), (and) the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #48)

^^
I think it is clear what type of Wisdom/Hikmah Jesus AS preached.
It was such a wisdom that not many people were able to understand and so he was rejected.

Lastly, concerning quote about Marraige/wives after the Resurrection.
Weren’t Adam and Eve…husband/wife in Paradise?
i believe this topic is deeper than what meets the eye.

*Luke 20
34 Jesus said to them, “The sons of (W)this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to (X)that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are (Y)sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. *

I mean, I don’t understand this personally…do you? please feel free to give your thoughts on this quote. I thought everyone (good and evil alike) will be resurrected awaiting judgement ie John 5:29. Personally I believe the Quranic verses/examples such as ‘virgins of heaven’ pertain 1) to a lesser paradise and 2) do not refer to gender…although the word ‘houri’ is interesting given the following info
*The word ‘ḥūr’ (حُور) is the plural of both ʾaḥwar (أحْوَر) (masculine) and ḥawrāʾ (حَوْراء) (feminine) * then this matches what Jesus said about posessing no gender. Certainly if a man has no gender in paradise then even the women have no gender, it sort of cancels itself out. The concept of carnal sex as people seem to apply to it, goes out the window.
  1. though we are given descriptions of paradise…again keep in mind the specific audience they were given to 4) descriptions are always allegorical for paradise
    *“Allah has said: I have prepared for My righteous servants what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no heart has conceived. * ironically this hadith continued with descriptions. I don’t think we fully understand yet.
anyway. nice talking to you.
 
Welcome to the forum AspiringSoul. I hope your time here is enlightening as I hope for the same with myself!
sigh
to the OP you quoted what Jesus said, but you should read behind the lines.
I assure you I look deep into the context of what is being said before I make a post. I’m not sure how to, “read behind the lines” but I can certainly read what Jesus said and the context of what was said.
"Matthew 5:33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: "

Jesus wasn’t rejecting the old testament commandments. He was elevating the people to a higher level beyond. For example he acknowledged that Divorce was allowed…for those people.
I believe there’s a higher wisdom in what Jesus was preaching…but you know that also depends on the recipients of his message.

Compare the followers of Jesus, to the wandering Israelites…and then compare the wandering israelites to the newly converted arabs.

Back to your original quote

Matthew 5:33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Good and Evil are very much subjective. The whole point of Paul’s teachings about the LAW in relation with Faith was to prove that the Law itself was not created to ‘conceal’ sin but to actually reveal the depths of darkness. An example of that to me as a muslim is how in islam…alcohol is forbidden though previously it wasn’t forbidden. So when a muslim consumes alcohol…he is not practicing evil anymore than people before…so what’s changed? it’s the consciousness of ‘sin’.
another valuable argument of Paul was that through the Law, darkness is revealed so God’s grace can be revealed.

I am a muslim but i do not strictly, absolutely…believe the religious texts are very specifically from God, not in absolute terms. I believe they are’ manifesting’ or dare i say this ‘channelling God’ into an intelligible form.
In many ways such texts are therefore specific to so much more context, the audience for example.
Your example of divorce does not work based on Jesus’s words:

Matthew 19:7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”

8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives,** but from the beginning it was not so**. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[d] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

Islam is very clear (and feel free to correct me if you think I’m wrong, but it is indeed very clear isn’t it?) that divorce is permissible. Jesus says clearly though that whoever divorces his wife and remarries commits adultery. According to Islam, one may divorce his wife even while being recommended not to but it can be permissible.

So Jesus was either right or wrong that divorce and remarriage is not okay, while the Qur’an is either right or wrong as well. Here we have a direct contradiction between the two Religions on the issue of divorce and they really cannot be compensated. One has to be wrong.

You are correct that Jesus brought a higher commandment on oath making; James in turn affirmed that commandment in his epistle. However, the belief that one could make on oath was not an established OT belief, rather it was something that people thought would be okay. Jesus clearly says, “do not make an oath” and the Qur’an clearly states that one may only make an oath on God.

Also, my point that the Bible only speaks of God making an oath on Himself, and yet the Qur’an has Allah making an oath on creation. Would you like to comment on that please?
Lastly, concerning quote about Marraige/wives after the Resurrection.
Weren’t Adam and Eve…husband/wife in Paradise?
i believe this topic is deeper than what meets the eye.
Perhaps, but irrelevant to the new Heaven and new Earth that is to come, and what Jesus Himself said.
 
*Luke 20
34 Jesus said to them, “The sons of (W)this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to (X)that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are (Y)sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. *

I mean, I don’t understand this personally…do you? please feel free to give your thoughts on this quote. I thought everyone (good and evil alike) will be resurrected awaiting judgement ie John 5:29.
Yes, I do understand the quote. The Sadducees were testing Jesus and asked a highly complicated question:

“Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, having a wife, and he dies without children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. And the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second[e] took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 Then the third took her, and in like manner the seven also; and they left no children,[f] and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33* Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife.”***

Jesus’s immediate reaction is “Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.”

They were thinking in a worldly way, where man and women would live together and have relations with each other. However, Heaven is far different, there is no marriage, nor sex. Only everlasting Worship of God from what we know.
Personally I believe the Quranic verses/examples such as ‘virgins of heaven’ pertain 1) to a lesser paradise and 2) do not refer to gender…although the word ‘houri’ is interesting given the following info
*The word ‘ḥūr’ (حُور) is the plural of both ʾaḥwar (أحْوَر) (masculine) and ḥawrāʾ (حَوْراء) (feminine) * then this matches what Jesus said about posessing no gender. Certainly if a man has no gender in paradise then even the women have no gender, it sort of cancels itself out. The concept of carnal sex as people seem to apply to it, goes out the window.
  1. though we are given descriptions of paradise…again keep in mind the specific audience they were given to 4) descriptions are always allegorical for paradise
    *“Allah has said: I have prepared for My righteous servants what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no heart has conceived. * ironically this hadith continued with descriptions. I don’t think we fully understand yet.
So then you do deny the flowing rivers of wine and the sexual pleasures and amount of wives in Heaven? I don’t mind this, as it is what Christianity teaches but not all Muslims believe as you do.
anyway. nice talking to you.
You too!
 
Thanks for replying.

*Matthew 19
7 They *said to Him, “(H)Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to [d]divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. *
Mark 10
5 But Jesus said to them, “cBecause of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.*

I think that’s the point I was making. The laws are relative to the people they’re intended for. It doesn’t make Moses wrong, but the people were in a state of spiritual ignorance so allowances were made for them. I don’t see why it needs to be different with the Quran either as the recipients of that message, were fresh out of polytheism.

We don’t know the full extent of their purpose, that’s the Wisdom/Hikmah I was trying to highlight.

a person abiding in true Unity of Consciousness (ie 'let your eye be single), cannot even entertain the thought of anything else than God. I feel for such people even paradise is a distraction.

I’ll give you another example. An Eye for an Eye, wrong? I don’t think it’s wrong. However to Jesus (abiding in Unity) it is wrong, he preached Forgiveness. The Quran simply made an allowance for both but made it clear forgiveness is better, as not everyone is the same.

It’s essential to at least posses some degree of wisdom when trying to interpret religious laws.

Concerning Oaths. I’m thinking it’s because people make false oaths. We promise to fulfill something, swear by God…and later when we’re not able to keep it, it’s damaging against us. It’s quite obvious why it’s better to not make an oath at all. However I see no wrong in God making an Oath because God cannot make a false Oath.
God made an Oath with Abraham for example, it is binding and cannot be broken.

I actually believe the descriptions of Paradise are allegorical anyway.
Trees/Fruits…you’re familiar with the bible so you know what this really means. The concept of the barren tree in comparison with the ‘true vine’…the tree of faith etc. These symbolise 2 types of trees in paradise and hell mentioned in the Quran. Another concept is ‘rivers flowing beneath them’…but this concept symbolises the river of energy flowing freely Beneath us. It’s also similar (not exactly the same) to Jesus walking on water, as that symbolised his conquest of the ‘sea of the heart’ (pertaining the subconscious ie sensality, desires etc).

Notice every time a spiritual reality was manifested physically. Healing the blind (also applies to the spiritually blind). When he condemned the barren fig tree and it was destroyed, it symbolised the people and their subsequent destruction which he foretold.

I believe it’s because spiritual realities are reflected in this world. The descriptions of paradise in the Quran are very physical in nature whilst actually being allegorical at the same time.

Perhaps the ‘rivers of wine’ symbolise the energy of devotion/love for God? Intoxication on the love of God (Divine ishq). although i’ve never read anything specific about ‘sexual’ pleasures. Not that sexuality is evil to me, but again it’s about self-control isn’t it? kind of what the Rivers symbolise.
 
Thanks for replying.

*Matthew 19
7 They *said to Him, “(H)Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to [d]divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
Mark 10
5 But Jesus said to them, “cBecause of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.*

I think that’s the point I was making. The laws are relative to the people they’re intended for. It doesn’t make Moses wrong, but the people were in a state of spiritual ignorance so allowances were made for them. I don’t see why it needs to be different with the Quran either as the recipients of that message, were fresh out of polytheism.
Jesus explains it was not meant to be this way but God permitted it, however Jesus also makes it clear how things ought to be. Muhammad did contradict this as a Prophet of Allah. Muhammad could have said what Jesus said, instead he took many wives for himself thus contradicting Jesus’s message.

I take it you don’t accept the new covenant was meant for all nations of the world, hence Christ’s, “Go into all nations baptising them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.”

Also, the Qur’an is said to be meant for all mankind and Muhammad as a “seal of the Prophets” if this is so, and the Qur’an permits polygamy then polygamy is permissible in all cultures for the future.
Concerning Oaths. I’m thinking it’s because people make false oaths. We promise to fulfill something, swear by God…and later when we’re not able to keep it, it’s damaging against us. It’s quite obvious why it’s better to not make an oath at all. However I see no wrong in God making an Oath because God cannot make a false Oath.
God made an Oath with Abraham for example, it is binding and cannot be broken.
Two things here:
  1. Christ set the standard, “do not make oaths at all!” therefore the Qur’an should work hand in hand with this. However, Allah does permit in the Qur’an to make an oath on himself. You’re right that making an oath can cause a false oath, and that’s why Jesus was so smart to explain, “make your yes, yes and your no, no.” but Allah does not state this. Rather, Allah does make it permissible to make an oath on him.
  2. Yes, God would make oaths but my point is that God would make an oath on Himself. God would swear on His Word, on His head, on Himself but never on something less than Him. However, in the Qur’an Allah swears multiple times on creation. Why would Allah make an oath on something less than him if God always swore on Himself since nothing is greater than He?
I actually believe the descriptions of Paradise are allegorical anyway.
Trees/Fruits…you’re familiar with the bible so you know what this really means. The concept of the barren tree in comparison with the ‘true vine’…the tree of faith etc. These symbolise 2 types of trees in paradise and hell mentioned in the Quran. Another concept is ‘rivers flowing beneath them’…but this concept symbolises the river of energy flowing freely Beneath us. It’s also similar (not exactly the same) to Jesus walking on water, as that symbolised his conquest of the ‘sea of the heart’ (pertaining the subconscious ie sensality, desires etc).

Notice every time a spiritual reality was manifested physically. Healing the blind (also applies to the spiritually blind). When he condemned the barren fig tree and it was destroyed, it symbolised the people and their subsequent destruction which he foretold.

I believe it’s because spiritual realities are reflected in this world. The descriptions of paradise in the Quran are very physical in nature whilst actually being allegorical at the same time.

Perhaps the ‘rivers of wine’ symbolise the energy of devotion/love for God? Intoxication on the love of God (Divine ishq). although i’ve never read anything specific about ‘sexual’ pleasures. Not that sexuality is evil to me, but again it’s about self-control isn’t it? kind of what the Rivers symbolise.
AspiringSoul; my advice for you is to read the earliest commentaries on the Qur’an and to also read the Hadith. Tell me where these interpretations come from, from our earliest sources. I often ask Muslims how they re-interpret the Qur’an and where in the Qur’an/Hadith/commentaries they can find these.

Thanks again for a respectable discussion.
 
I do believe the new testament, the teachings within it, were for all people. How else could Byzantines and Arabs become Christian? I’ll get back to this point.

Have you wondered why God permitted a thing that was already set right? Ie divorce. Why was it allowed?
I mean it’s not just God allowing it for people with hard hearts.

*Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.
*

Now if you look back at what I wrote earlier, I explained how there is a state of Unity and a state of multiplicity.

Jesus was abiding in a state of Oneness. ‘Let your eye be single’. It’s the same as the concept of Wahdat as-Shuhood. Oneness of Perception. What Jesus preached, it was all about keeping with this Oneness so much so that to even call another person ‘fool’ was equal to Hell. Good and evil are relative.

Let me make it clear, TRUE Christianity, practiced as it should be, is very pure. I recall one example where an early Christian and his wife were killed instantly by the Holy Spirit just for concealing some of their wealth.
Some would all this intolerance, but to me it’s because there’s a much higher standard. A greater reward but a heavier penalty.

I’ll give you another comparison
The circumcision is a symbol of the ‘cutting of the flesh’ (that is, a struggle against our carnal nature)
The crucifixion is a symbol of the DEATH of the flesh.
The crucifixion is far more powerful than the circumcision isn’t it? i know this and i’m a muslim. There are sufi muslims who also teach this…but very few can live it.

Now the obvious question is, if Jesus raised people to a higher state of consciousness. Why would Mohammed ‘reduce’ people back to the previous state?

You know my view to this?
The law and circumcision was for us who aren’t in Unity.
Jesus brings the law to completition by raising them to Unity. The previous law (Torah) was only for the Israelites. Gentiles had no real laws…yet they received this spiritual gift from Christianity to receive the holy spirit and attain the higher state of consciousness.

For a long time this was good enough, if they had the Grace of God, abiding in Unity already, then what need for the law?
Why didn’t it just remain like this?

It’s clear to me that by the time Mohammed entered this world, the Christians were divided into sects (the unity was finished). Even the symbol of the crucifix lost it’s original meaning by becoming a symbol of roman imperialism.

Please do not take this personally, I love Christianity, I love Jesus…but just read what it says in Jude. Christianity was slowly being hijacked by lesser people who cared not about the teachings or the symbols and certainly were not in a state of Unity.

You look at the strength of even the 3rd entury Christians
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sleepers
This story is mentioned in the Quran. These people were Saints/Awliya.

But by the time Mohammed came it was a different type of scenaio.
Furthermore, Mohammed came to a people who didn’t even have a ‘bad’ form of Christianity, these people were practicing the most materialistic form of polythiesm. They didn’t believe in life after death either. The Christians had no interest in converting these people, if they did they’d have conquered Arabia long ago.
Should Mohammed have made these people Christians? knowing Christianity by that time was on a downward spiral? (again do not take this personally, it happened with christianity and with islam).

Quite simply, if Jesus preached the unity he did and CHristians had the grace of God, how could there be ‘sects’ amongst the Christians? don’t you take that a sign something was wrong? Again, the Book of Jude makes it clear from the offset what was happening(or going to happen).

Someone certainly had to do something. It couldn’t have been a jewish Prophet since Jesus brought Judaism to completion already.
Furthermore at the very least the Jews still had Torah. If the gentiles didn’t have the Holy Spirit…didn’t have the Grace of God, were on a downward spiral, as it says in Jude…what else do they have? in effect the Gentiles were without law and without grace (sure they were exceptions and always will be but the overwhelming majority were in trouble).

I believe Mohammed had to bring Shariah, a more universal form of Torah…for a people already abiding in multiplicity.

It also adds an element of beauty for me, knowing that even the idea of Jesus ‘completing the law’ is all the more powerful given he will return and muslims believe in him.
I don’t believe it’s an accident the only man who created a successful religion after Jesus was an Ismaelite prophet as this adds so much more emphasis to the original promise God gave to Hagar.
Even the concept of the ‘12 princes’ is fulfilled by the ‘12 Caliphs of Quraysh’.

Let me tell you something. The jews believed the messiah would make the ‘Torah great’ and little did they know that Jesus would ‘fulfill the law’ in a way theydidn’t perceive. Ie he took it’s purpose, requirement and superseded it with something greater.

The hadith tell us Jesus would judge us according to Shariah…and i picture something similar where the law is superceded and people attain a higher state of consciousness, Unity.

There’s an element of Taoism here aswell. Thes are quotes from the Tao te ching. I always see a similarity in the ways of Jesus, with the Tao.

If powerful men and women
could remain centered in the Tao,
all things would be in harmony.
The world would become a paradise.
All people would be at peace,
and the law would be written in their hearts.


^^ a messianic concept.
 
The ‘tao’ is the equivalent of the true state of Unity, the highest state of consciousness.

isn’t this similar to the way of life Jesus lived? ie the crucifixion too is a symbol of ths.

*The soft overcomes the hard.
The slow overcomes the fast.
Let your workings remain a mystery.
Just show people the results
*

and jus tto sum up what happens when the religion goes into a downward spiral

*When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos
*

isn’t this here, another concept associated with Jesus, who was ‘refined like silver in the furnace’?

*The Master views the parts with compassion,
because he understands the whole.
His constant practice is humility.
He doesn’t glitter like a jewel
but lets himself be shaped by the Tao,
as rugged and common as stone.
*

i’ll just continue with these quotes because most ofthem match the way of Jesus.
The gentlest thing in the world
overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
That which has no substance
enters where there is no space.
This shows the value of non-action.


*Thus it is said:
The path into the light seems dark,
the path forward seems to go back,
the direct path seems long,
true power seems weak,
true purity seems tarnished,
true steadfastness seems changeable,
true clarity seems obscure,
the greatest are seems unsophisticated,
the greatest love seems indifferent,
the greatest wisdom seems childish.
Every being in the universe
is an expression of the Tao.


We are made in the Image of God.

It springs into existence,
unconscious, perfect, free,
takes on a physical body,
lets circumstances complete it.
That is why every being
spontaneously honors the Tao.
*
funny how this matches ‘The Word made flesh’
several terms like Logos/Image/Son they mean the same thing. They are all descriptions of the Universal Consciousness/Spirit/Being also called the Tao.
*
The Tao gives birth to all beings,
nourishes them, maintains them,
cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
takes them back to itself,
creating without possessing,
acting without expecting,
guiding without interfering.
That is why love of the Tao
is in the very nature of things.


Where does islam fit into this? Quite simply

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.


The difference between Unity and multiplicity is Desire.
This is why I believe God/His Message manifests differently to people dending on their spiritual state. I don’t view it as a contradiction at all.
Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.*
 
You asked why Allah swears an something other than Himself in the Quran.
In a lot of ways islam, though connected with Judaism it’s also fresh and seperate from so much of the ‘baggage’ which came about in jewish history. Through these oaths the Arab muslims recognised God’s Sovereignty (Jabarut) over His Kingdom (Malakut)

All the things God ‘swears’ on are powerful, meaningful examples of His Kingdom.

by the falling of stars
by the heaven
by the glorious Quran
by the wind that scatters far and wide
by the pen and what the angels write,
by the moon,
by the day of resurrection
by the sunset redness
by the daybreak
by the fig and the olive, and mount Sinai


Btw, how many times did people question Jesus only to be answered in a way they didn’t expect? There’s Always a deeper wisdom in how things are.

If you trust in the Will of God, then you know God has a plan. So many Christians say islam is ‘of the devil’ ‘evil’ etc but go direct to the examples set by Jesus himself.

ie accused of exorcising demons by the power of Baal.
His argument ‘satans kingdom is not divided’ and the Quran makes it clear who Iblees/Satan is and certainly it’s clear he is condemned.

If i’m a Christian, i’ve got to question that.

I’ve spoke to a lot of Christians in the past. I presented this point to one recently and he still said ‘no but satan pretends to be good and he makes evil look good and good look evil’ and i’m thinking
‘are you serious? Jesus made things plain and simple’

I’ll give you an example
Satanism openly and clearly rejects and attacks Christianity, Islam, God, Jesus etc.
Satanism is very clearly a satanic religion coming from Satan.

Islam on the otherhand rejects Satan. Yet many Christians consider islam to be an evil religion.

Look even deeper than that. Is channelling forbidden in the bible? Yes…Joseph Smith ‘channelled’ messages from an ‘Angel’.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Moroni
An angel, who had claimed to be an ex-sailor who had died.
Everytime i read about a false claiming to prophethood i always find a clear flaw in the argument, ie concepts clearly forbidden in the old testament like channeling, divination etc (all forbidden in islam aswell). Angels who do not ever refer to themselves as ‘Gabriel’ but always something else. Many times a Jinn will claim to be an angel and yet it will slip up and say ‘i am a male/female’.

of the 2 major points which seperate us, ie the Trinity and the Crucifixion, i find that really they aren’t so seperate, it’s just people are not aware of the metaphysics between them. Ie the Logos is Eternal and is called the ‘son of God’ in the symbolic sense. The logos is the macrocosm, the Holy Spirit is the microcosm.

The Absolute Essence of God is beyond even concepts, cannot be known, but we see the manifestation of God through the prism of the Logos.
Logos is equivalent of Lahut (in islam, you can look this term up), it is a timeless state of Being/Perception.
Holy spirit is the equivalent of the highest point in Jabarut (causation), it’s called the Lataif Sirri.

You basically have the Absolute Essence manifesting through the ‘prism’ of the Macrocosm as the Absolute God.
Humans, by the power of the holy spirit experience themselves as a microcosm of the Absolute. It’s a deep concept but it can be taken/interpreted in different ways by people who donot understand and then you have people giving the wrong meaning to both

The people of Unity (ie the early Christians for example) had the Oneness of perception (let your eye be single) so to such people, they were witnessing the manifestations of the Absolute Essence through Jesus.

Though it appeared they worshipped him, they were Worshipping God. Jesus represents transparency. This state is also similar to the concept of Ihsan, the highest state of faith in Islam

a sufi quote

*Al-Buti said:

What is the meaning of the expression “oneness of perception”?
When I interact with causes with full respect to Allah’s ways, His orders, and His Law, knowing that the sustenance that comes to me is from Allah; the felicity that enters my home is from Allah Almighty; my food is readied for me by Allah - I mean even the smallest details; the wealth with which I have been graced, comes from Allah; the illness that has been put in my being or that of a relative of mine comes from Allah Almighty; the cure that followed it is from Allah Almighty; my success in my studies is by Allah Almighty’s grant; the results which I have attained after obtaining my degrees and so forth, are from Allah Almighty’s grant - when the efficacy of causes melts away in my sight and I no longer see, behind them, other than the Causator Who is Allah Almighty:
at that time, when you look right, you do not see except Allah’s Attributes, and when you look left, you do not see other than Allah’s Attributes. As much as you evolve in the world of causes, you do not see, through them, other than the Causator, Who is Allah.
At that time you have become raised to what the spiritual masters have called oneness of perception. And this oneness of perception is what Allah’s Messenger expressed by the word ihsan [which he defined to mean]: “That you worship Allah as if you see him.” You do not see the causes as a barrier between you and Allah. Rather, you see causes, in the context of this doctrine, very much like pure, transparent glass: the glass pane is present - no one denies it - but as much as you stare at it, you do not see anything except what is behind it. Is it not so? You only see what is behind it. The world is entirely made of glass panes in this fashion. You see in them Allah’s efficacy in permanence, so you are always with Allah Almighty. None has tasted the sweetness of belief unless he has reached that level of perception.*
 
Lastly…you know how many interpretations they are? in islam, no one except God knows the true meaning of the Quran. There are multiple levels of perception so there are multiple interpretations of the same verses.

It is forbidden for anyone to claim ‘THIS is it’s meaning’ this is why i fin it problematic when muslims in our era claim ‘The Quran says Jesus didn’t die but appeared to die’ and i’m thinking ‘that’s your interpretation, but it’s actually deeper than that’.

Sorry for the long posts, please…don’t dissect these posts, it’s hard to reply each time. im not even attempting a debate anyway. I just have my own viewpoints and don’t mind sharing them.
 
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