Islam: Who else saw the angel?

[chrisb]

You don’t know the Bible very well do you?

I’m not going to give an opinion on what I know very well. Hopefully my posts will merit your respect in the future.

**

Exodus 24:9-11

9Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.**

In all accounts I was refering to each Prophets ‘first’ encounter with the divine. I felt I clarified my point concerning Moses…

I’m suggesting you don’t know the Bible.

Well, we’re all entitled to our opinions.

No. Read the original post and go to the links. Each and everyone of the four Gospel authors walked with Christ.

Three of the Gospel authors (Mathew, Mark and Luke) are ‘not’ eyewitnesses. They are recording teachings they claim to be truthful. These teachings have been gained second hand through oral tradition.

 

[eliasaph99]

I’m not going to give an opinion on what I know very well. Hopefully my posts will merit your respect in the future.

**

In all accounts I was refering to each Prophets ‘first’ encounter with the divine. I felt I clarified my point concerning Moses…

Well, we’re all entitled to our opinions.

Three of the Gospel authors (Mathew, Mark and Luke) are ‘not’ eyewitnesses. They are recording teachings they claim to be truthful. These teachings have been gained second hand through oral tradition.**

Matthew was an eyewitness. He is the tax collector called by Christ as recorded in his own Gospel in chapter 9:9.

Also, for the two Gospel writers who were not eyewitnesses, I would hardly describe their knowledge as having been gained from ‘oral tradition.’ This implies a long period of time of the stories being passed only by mouth. This is not correct. All the Gospels were written early in the first century.

As I said in an earlier post, Marks Gospel was very likely the account rendered to him by Peter, Prince of the Apostles. Lukes Gospel was compiled from copius research and interviews of eyewitnesses.

 

[De_Maria]

No.

You see the confusion comes from the point that the concept of worship is much broader in Islam than in Christianity.

So Allah was confused as to what constitutes worship to Christians?

If you plead to a dead saint so he can intervene with God this is worship in Islam . If you make a human Holy or semi devine then this is worship in Islam .

But in fact it isn’t worship and so Allah made an error. Or was it Muhammad?

The Quran doesnt mention mary as part of the trinity but mentions her as bieng in the status of a God to some people.

This is what the Quran says:

5:73. They do blaspheme who say:
Allah is one of three [in a Trinity]:
for there is no god except One Allah.
If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy)
verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.Note that Muhammad says Allah is one of three in a trinity.

Now consider, Muslims do not consider Jesus to be God, nor Mary, so when the Quran says:

And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur’an 5:116]

Therefore, it is consistent. Muhammad thinks that the Trinity consists of three Gods, two of which are false to him. Therefore he says that Allah is one of three, since he does not consider Jesus and Mary to be Allah.

That is why some christians think that the Quran was confused about the nature of teh trinity

No. That is how we have proven that the Quran is confused about the nature of the Trinity.

For one thing, it is clear Muhammad considers the Trinity to be defined as three Gods. For another, he considers Mary to be one of these Gods. He is wrong on both counts.

. But actually its them who are confused wbout what constitues worship in islam .

But the question is not what constitutes worship in Islam, but what the Quran considers to be the Trinity in Christianity.

It is clear that Muhammad is confused as to what Christians believe and has made an error in explaining it. Unless you want to attribute the error to Allah. Either way, it proves that Quran is not of divine origins.

Hope i replied to your question

Meedo

It wasn’t a question. It was an assertion. The Quran is in error on this matter.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Three of the Gospel authors (Mathew, Mark and Luke) are ‘not’ eyewitnesses. They are recording teachings they claim to be truthful. These teachings have been gained second hand through oral tradition.

Even if that were true, we still have a superior witness than the Quran.

But it isn’t. Matthew is the Apostle an eyewitness. Mark is recording Peter’s eyewitness account. And Luke verifies and confirms that he obtained his account from eyewitnesses.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[meedo]

I don’t know if you are a Sunni or a Shi’ite, but I think that you are greatly oversimplifying matters.

I know for a fact that Shi’ites revere and pray to dead Muslims from their history. There are hundreds of shrines to these Muslim ‘saints’ spread across the Muslim world.

Whatever it is they think they’re doing, I’m sure that the Muslims honoring and praying to these people would not claim that they were worshipping them.

This practice is also widespread in Sufism, which is a branch of Islam.

Actually you hit the nail on the head.

all the examples you mentioned are considered worshipping of false idols . If a muslim asks a dead guyin a shrine to intervene with God , he is worshipping him and is considered an idol worshipper in islam .

when i ma speaking of Islam here i am speaking of mainstream sunni Muslim Islam which is the vast majority and the ones with solid proof going back to the Quran and Hadeeth.

thanks

 

[Montalban]

Actually you hit the nail on the head.

all the examples you mentioned are considered worshipping of false idols . **If a muslim asks a dead guyin a shrine to intervene with God , he is worshipping him and is considered an idol worshipper in islam . **

when i ma speaking of Islam here i am speaking of mainstream sunni Muslim Islam which is the vast majority and the ones with solid proof going back to the Quran and Hadeeth.

thanks

So if you ask the police to intervene, you’re worshipping them?

Out of curioisity…
Can the dead hear the living, in Islamic belief?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

De Maria,
You’re right that the hadiths I provided are not of the ‘cave revelation’ episode. That is a given since the cave is VERY small - about 2 to 3 metres cube (I’ve forgotten the exact dimensions). There’s only about enough room for one or two people inside.

I remember reading long ago about Aisha saying that Muhammad believed he was speaking to Gibril, but Aisha saw no one, even though they were alone - implication was they were in bed.

There are stories from the sira or hadiths that Muhammad saw Gibril warning him about the Jews of the B. Nadir planning to drop a stone on his head. But his companions saw or heard nothing.

As for the hadiths being not compulsory beliefs - that is true and also untrue. The Sunni Muslims, who comprise the vast majority of Muslims, do believe in the sahih hadiths of Imam Muslim and Bukhari. These hadiths form a major part of the Sunnah. When Muslims are asked to follow the Quran and the Sunnah - what do you think the Sunnah came from?

So what do we know from the sahih hadiths, the Quran and sira?

1. Muhammad claimed he saw an angel named Gibril who dictated to him the Quran from Allah. Nobody else saw Gibril so this was unverified. However…
2. Muhammad claimed to have seen Gibril when other people saw Dihya ibn al-Kalbi.
3. Muhammad claimed to have seen and spoken to Gibril when Aisha saw and heard nobody. Also, Muhammad’s companions saw nothing during the B. Nadir stone-dropping non-incident.

So, this is all undeniable proof that Muhammad was the true prophet of Allah the merciful, the compassionate.

Or one might conclude Muhammad was delusional and made up the whole thing.

Rodrigo

 

[thistle]

De Maria,
You’re right that the hadiths I provided are not of the ‘cave revelation’ episode. That is a given since the cave is VERY small - about 2 to 3 metres cube (I’ve forgotten the exact dimensions). There’s only about enough room for one or two people inside.

I remember reading long ago about Aisha saying that Muhammad believed he was speaking to Gibril, but Aisha saw no one, even though they were alone - implication was they were in bed.

There are stories from the sira or hadiths that Muhammad saw Gibril warning him about the Jews of the B. Nadir planning to drop a stone on his head. But his companions saw or heard nothing.

As for the hadiths being not compulsory beliefs - that is true and also untrue. The Sunni Muslims, who comprise the vast majority of Muslims, do believe in the sahih hadiths of Imam Muslim and Bukhari. These hadiths form a major part of the Sunnah. When Muslims are asked to follow the Quran and the Sunnah - what do you think the Sunnah came from?

So what do we know from the sahih hadiths, the Quran and sira?

1. Muhammad claimed he saw an angel named Gibril who dictated to him the Quran from Allah. Nobody else saw Gibril so this was unverified. However…
2. Muhammad claimed to have seen Gibril when other people saw Dihya ibn al-Kalbi.
3. Muhammad claimed to have seen and spoken to Gibril when Aisha saw and heard nobody. Also, Muhammad’s companions saw nothing during the B. Nadir stone-dropping non-incident.

So, this is all undeniable proof that Muhammad was the true prophet of Allah the merciful, the compassionate.

Or one might conclude Muhammad was delusional and made up the whole thing.

Rodrigo

Now that’s the truth!!

 

[De_Maria]

Actually you hit the nail on the head.

all the examples you mentioned are considered worshipping of false idols . If a muslim asks a dead guyin a shrine to intervene with God , he is worshipping him and is considered an idol worshipper in islam .

when i ma speaking of Islam here i am speaking of mainstream sunni Muslim Islam which is the vast majority and the ones with solid proof going back to the Quran and Hadeeth.

thanks

Whether you be Shiite or Sunni, the fact remains that:

1. No one saw the Angel but Muhammad. Therefore, all Muhammad’s claims are unsubstantiated.
2. Either Muhammad or Allah erred when one of them claimed that the Trinity consists of:

a. Three Gods
b. Allah, Jesus and Mary.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Gnosis]

Most Christians would benefit to think of Muhammad as one thinks of the great prophets of social reform in the Hebrew Bible; Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah.

Who but these prophets witnessed their visions?

Many of the people of Arabia doubted the message of Muhammad, and indeed, many accused him of soccerry and delusion. Yet those that entered Islam did what God asks of all his followers, to believe and have faith. Those who chose to believe Muhammad did so because of the beauty of his message, the beauty of the Qu’ran.

In addition to this, the Prophet was well known for his honsety and integrity. The power of his message and his Prophethood was evident in its effects; the Prophet began a virtual monotheistic revolution in Arabia, drawing the fragmented tribes together and uniting them under the Ummah, which turned Arabia into one of the world’s great civilizations.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

A person of honesty and integrity? Muhammad was accused by the pagans of making up and/or plagiarizing ancient tales.

A powerful message of clarity and beauty does not need threats of violence to impose it on others. Muhammad threatened the Jews of Medinah who refused to accept him as their prophet - he vowed to kill and/or exile them. This shows he was no prophet but a vicious thug.

The number of followers of Islam only increased due to greed and violence - only when he started to attack caravans and villages and give 80% of the plunder to his followers did the appeal of Islam increase. Before that, he only had a few followers. Islam is a vicious bandit religion made up by a vicious bandit. A true prophet would not need to go to such immoral extremes.

Visions by definition may be personal issues. However, many Muslims could see Muhammad mistook Dihya al-Kalbi for Gibril - that is certainly delusional unless you invoke the supernatural “get out of jail” card.

I’m sure you’re going to make some weak justification for Muhammad’s banditry and violence, not to mention the enslavement of the women and children of defeated peoples. Such morality - I don’t know how Muslims can look themselves in the mirror to know they follow a man who would do such things. But then again, I’m only an atheist so I’m morally suspect already - since I don’t follow a man who raided caravans, killed Jews, enslaved women and children, dreamt of marrying little baby girls in swaddling clothes, tortured enemies, murdered critics. Lying is just so passe after one commits all those crimes.

Chau
Rodrigo

 

[MugenOne]

I heard that there’s a Shia/Sunni split in Islam because the Angel Gabriel went to the wrong bedroom where Mohammed was sleeping. Ali was supposed to be in that room. I don’t know about you, but angels don’t make mistake especially if God wanted to form a new religion. You know what I’m sayin’

 

[meedo]

I heard that there’s a Shia/Sunni split in Islam because the Angel Gabriel went to the wrong bedroom where Mohammed was sleeping. Ali was supposed to be in that room. I don’t know about you, but angels don’t make mistake especially if God wanted to form a new religion. You know what I’m sayin’

That is not correct. What you ar ereferring to is a group within shia that has broke away from Islam .

Btw, Shia has produced many groups that is not considered muslims any more . They all developed hundreds of years after Muhammed . Mainstream Majority shia dont believe in such things .

The reason for the split is to whom that should have been a successor in ruling after the prophet .

salam

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam De Maria;

You are right De Maria, there was no witness who heard or saw the Angel who spoke to Muhammad (PBUH),

 

[inJESUS]

The Biblical prophets gave the same teachings, so they attested to each others’ testimonies. No one testified to what Muhammad said, and Jesus is clear that there must be more than the testimony of one man.

As to intercession, didn’t Allah say he accepts the intercession of who he wills? and didn’t muhammad say he’ll intercede for his people?

 

[exoflare]

from Christians?

really? and isn’t this written in the NT?

from Christians, and apocrypha.

. the apostles knew Mary? would they believe the mother of the Messiah? did they quote the OT?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

How can you misrepresent something that is totally false like Islam and its founder a fraud.

By saying something critical of it that is untrue - the mediaeval belief that Muslims worshipped an idol called Baphomet, is a misrepresentation of just this kind.​

It is long way from that to criticising Islam because of this or that feature of the Koran. The Baphomet story is rubbish - asking Muslims to account for the “satanic verses” in the Koran (given their belief in its perfection) is a question based on what they accept as true. The second is responsible & fair criticism, the first is neither.

Just as it is fair to expect us to account for this or that title of Christ, but a misrepresentation to insist that we should account for the “Gospel of Barnabas”. It has nothing of Barnabas but the name, as it is a late - 1580s ? - forgery. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Most Christians would benefit to think of Muhammad as one thinks of the great prophets of social reform in the Hebrew Bible; Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah.

Who but these prophets witnessed their visions?

Many of the people of Arabia doubted the message of Muhammad, and indeed, many accused him of soccerry and delusion. Yet those that entered Islam did what God asks of all his followers, to believe and have faith. Those who chose to believe Muhammad did so because of the beauty of his message, the beauty of the Qu’ran.

In addition to this, the Prophet was well known for his honsety and integrity. The power of his message and his Prophethood was evident in its effects; the Prophet began a virtual monotheistic revolution in Arabia, drawing the fragmented tribes together and uniting them under the Ummah, which turned Arabia into one of the world’s great civilizations.

Understood - however, he contradicts the teaching of Jesus (on marriage, for example) - & though there is some similarity (if one is generous) to those Prophets, the argument is undermined by the fact that he came after Jesus rather than about their time & (this is crucial) before Jesus.​

Jesus does not tell us to wage holy war - the Koran does. Jesus’ Life & teaching & Death is a judgement on our failures to live by it; it also judges the claims made for him, & by that standard he is found wanting. If we are at fault for not turning the other cheek, so is he. I’m sorry if saying this is hurtful, but I don’t see how it can be avoided. ##

 

[De_Maria]

Most Christians would benefit to think of Muhammad as one thinks of the great prophets of social reform in the Hebrew Bible; Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah.

Who but these prophets witnessed their visions?

There was no need. Their prophecies came true and thus substantiated the visions.

Many of the people of Arabia doubted the message of Muhammad, and indeed, many accused him of soccerry and delusion. Yet those that entered Islam did what God asks of all his followers, to believe and have faith. Those who chose to believe Muhammad did so because of the beauty of his message, the beauty of the Qu’ran.

The Quran pales in beauty to even the simplest poems I have heard and nothing compares to even one verse of the Bible:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BegottenSon, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There are no words so beautiful in the world as those. Although some come close, but only in the Bible:

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

In addition to this, the Prophet was well known for his honsety and integrity.

A person who teaches that one may lie to those whom he is supposed to love the most, his wife and mother. And for other reasons as well. This person can’t be considered honest.

A person who will use his rank to take a wife from his subordinate. That person doesn’t have integrity.

The power of his message and his Prophethood was evident in its effects; the Prophet began a virtual monotheistic revolution in Arabia, drawing the fragmented tribes together and uniting them under the Ummah, which turned Arabia into one of the world’s great civilizations.

There have been many magnetic warlords who have almost conquered the world. Mohammed was just one of them.

But even the Quran admits, that no one compares to Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[JBautista]

inJESUS;1909252:

Isn’t it amazing how the obvious things like this never seem to cross the minds of Muslims? I seriously do not understand it.

“because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand” Mathew 13:13