Islamic indoctrination case - La Plata High School, Maryland

[oldcatholicguy]

Well said.

How do we determine which amoral system of governance is preferable? And can this same method be used to compare and contrast different religions?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

History has already spoken on the matter of Mr. Woods, no need to speculate any further. Let us be thankful, Mr. Woods has taken legal action and did not act according to your negative comment about his character attack by his demeanor.

English isn’t your native tongue is it? I’m asking, and I mean no disrespect or slight in asking, because of how you are phrasing your responses and what word combinations you are using.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

English isn’t your native tongue is it? I’m asking, and I mean no disrespect or slight in asking, because of how you are phrasing your responses and what word combinations you are using.

I was wondering the same thing, but didn’t know if such a post would violate the TOS of the forums.

Gabriel, I’m finding it very difficult to follow your train of thought since you’re haplessly stringing disparate sentences together, and equivocating a number of words. I believe this is where our misunderstanding of each other over federal vs. state and bill vs. law lies.

 

[Usagi]

If the assignment teaches the bold above, then the teaching is biased and it lies. For one the Gospels are never revealed to Moses.

I presume it means that the Torah was revealed to Moses and the Gospels to the Evangelists. The word “respectively” would have helped, but that’s not a lie, just an unclear statement.

Secondly; the Jews and Christians did not receive divine revelation “The SAME WAY” Muhammad claimed to be visited by an angel, without any witnesses present.

Well, yes, the details differ, but there is a similarity there that can help students (who are probably more familiar with the Bible than the Quran) understand how Muslims view their holy book. In more detailed teaching it would be important to point out that the Quran is understood to have literally been dictated by an angel, while Biblical inspiration works differently.

Thirdly; Muhammad never writes the Quran. Muhammad recites after Muhammad’s angel physically chokes Muhammad three time before Muhammad Quran’s = recites and never writes “the word of Allah”.

Does the description of the lesson anywhere mention writing the Quran?

Mr. Wood has a case here; The curriculum can innocently make it’s pupils Muslims, if they recite publicly the tenants of Islam while in the presence of a Muslim student.

I’m sorry, what? I have described the tenets of Islam to other people and I assure you that I am still a Catholic.

There is a fine line this curriculum teaches about Islam. It only takes a profession of the tenants of Islam to make one a Muslim of Islam.

Surely a “profession” is different from a description, or even a recitation that is meant to demonstrate knowledge and not indicate acceptance of the theology. Is every Christian apologetic writer who writes about Islam a Muslim because somewhere in there he or she probably lists and describes the Five Pillars?

If Mr. Woods daughter says aloud if she writes “Muhammad is the prophet of Allah, the only one true god, who is Allah” she makes a confirmation of accepting the Islamic faith, without her or the teacher aware, but if a Muslim is present, Mr. Woods daughter becomes a Muslim. The school needs to be informed of what makes a Muslim of Islam, and it appears the ignorant teacher is converting students to Islam.

According to whom does innocently saying certain words in front of a fellow student turn someone into a Muslim? According to you? I suspect that the baptismal character of Christian students will survive an unintentional mention of the Muslim profession of faith.

If you mean that certain Muslims believe that, okay. But non-Muslim students are not required to agree with them and change their behavior to match. Unless you think that some nefarious Muslim group is somehow keeping track of every American kid who has ever innocently repeated the shahada, so that they can someday (after they have taken over, I presume) accuse that kid of apostasy for “going back” to his or her actual beliefs? That is about as crazy as Jack Chick’s notion of the big computer in the Vatican that keeps track of all the Protestants so we can round them up some day.

Usagi

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Usagi;12560345]I presume it means that the Torah was revealed to Moses and the Gospels to the Evangelists. The word “respectively” would have helped, but that’s not a lie, just an unclear statement.

Hi, Usagi
We both speculate here. My post begins with “If” and your response begins with “I presume”. All the facts are not clearly presented in the OP. Until a fact presents itself to clear our speculations. It appears to me as a misrepresentation of the Truth simply put a Lie, and you presume to write for the author, I do not attempt to re-write for an author, although I can ask, by beginning with “If”?

Well, yes, the details differ, but there is a similarity there that can help students (who are probably more familiar with the Bible than the Quran) understand how Muslims view their holy book. In more detailed teaching it would be important to point out that the Quran is understood to have literally been dictated by an angel, while Biblical inspiration works differently.

Then we are in agreement that the curriculum as it is stated again deceives by stating all mentioned religions received divine revelation the “Same”. The curriculum would better be serving to the students, if it revealed the true divine revelation of Muhammad by an angel, when the angel choked Muhammad three times for Muhammad to recite =Quran. Secondly the curriculum does not reveal Quran means to recite not write. Without technicality, the curriculum presumes the Quran is written by Muhammad inspired by Allah the same way the gospels and old testament are divinely given.

The dictation by an angel was not given to Muhammad. To my understanding the angel displayed a divine document for Muhammad to recite from.

Individual Muslims later (not Muhammad) who write the Quran or compile writings together to arrive at the Quran, were not given each divine inspiration to write the Quran. Let us be clear here. To believe such a thing would be blasphemy according to Muslims, who reject God the Holy Spirit and would disqualify Muhammad as their great prophet, if another individual Muslim was inspired to write the Quran.

So I cannot accept nor will a practicing Muslim accept another Muslim receive divine inspiration to write or compile the Quran. Muslim’s base the compilation of the Quran according to the memory of Muslims in the presence of Muhammad who recited the Quran. Note however, the writings are recorded by memory according to multiple Muslims memory, they did not receive their Quran the same way the Jews and Christians received divine revelation inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Word of God.

Does the description of the lesson anywhere mention writing the Quran?

I don’t know, from what is presented by the attorneys. The curriculum implies that the Muslims received their Quran “the same way” the Jews received the Torah and Christians received the Gospels. I won’t comment on what is presented about Moses receiving the same Gospels. It would be a true curriculum if the teacher presented that Muhammad was choked three times by the angel to recite=Quran, instead of falsely placing the Quran, the Torah and the Gospels of Jesus Christ were received “the same way” which falsely implies that Islam is the fulfillment of both the Jewish and Christian religions. When the Quran teaches both Jews and Christians got divine revelation all wrong. This Quran teaching of the former proves the curriculum misrepresents Islam and the Quran of all receiving divine revelation “the same way”, when the Quran itself never teaches such a thing.

I’m sorry, what? I have described the tenets of Islam to other people and I assure you that I am still a Catholic.

My comment relates to the disposition of the Plaintiff, not my own. The plaintiff’s representatives argue that the curriculum teaches one to be indoctrinated into Islam according to the Quran and Muslim’s who practice Islam. The Plaintiff according to his living experience is a witness to the indoctrination of Islam, which the curriculum has every student writing. Whether or not the teacher directs each student to recite the indoctrination as part of the curriculum remains to be seen.

cont’

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Surely a “profession” is different from a description, or even a recitation that is meant to demonstrate knowledge and not indicate acceptance of the theology

.
I agree; a good living example from the Plaintiff’s side is revealed by our present president, when at this same high school age attended an all Muslim (Islam) school. There are some in the public and private sector who make the claim that our president is a Muslim because he recited the shaaddah as a teenager? Barrack Husseien Obama our present president, says he is a Christian? Do you think, Mr. Woods would want his daughter in the same predicament we find our current president of the United States?
The Muslims take their Islamic indoctrination very seriously, rather than have some public agency play with something very sacred to a Muslim, I would agree with you, that it be taught in a way which can prove that it does not disgrace Muslims faith and offend Mr. Woods and his daughters faith.

Is every Christian apologetic writer who writes about Islam a Muslim because somewhere in there he or she probably lists and describes the Five Pillars?

I think, you should ask the Christians living in a predominant Islamic country, who would probably not dare be caught by a Muslim writing about Islam and it’s tenants of faith and then get there answer?

For all other’s writing about the tenants of Islam does not make one a Muslim. This is never my position.

According to whom does innocently saying certain words in front of a fellow student turn someone into a Muslim? According to you?

No, not how you incorrectly describe the recitation and not according to myself, but according to a practicing Muslim who follows Islam, according to the Quran. One would have to ask each Muslim who represents one of the seven different interpretations of the Quran, if just a simple recitation in the witness of a Muslim makes one a Muslim?
I wonder what would be the case if a teenager who is Christian, publicly innocently recited the indoctrination of Islam in the hearing of a practicing Muslim in an Islamic country would claim this teenager to be a Muslim and make this teenager a death threat if he converts away from Islam? This is just a speculation, but it points to the serious business by both Mr. Woods and a practicing Muslim in an Islamic Country would take your simple recitation by a non-Muslim.

There are many examples to this, from foreign exchange students being practicing Muslims present at this curriculum would either see all students convert at the recitation or see his Islamic faith mocked by the curriculum because it lacks the respect to Islam’s indoctrination? All who approved this Islamic curriculum is the one who needs to be brought up front and center.

I suspect that the baptismal character of Christian students will survive an unintentional mention of the Muslim profession of faith.

Not according to a Muslim if one recites according to the Quran, which the curriculum thus far displays. Although, I would not want a public spectacle be made of a Christian water baptism by a school curriculum either.

If you mean that certain Muslims believe that, okay. But non-Muslim students are not required to agree with them and change their behavior to match.

I don’t believe the practices of Islam is discussed by the Plaintiff after one becomes a Muslim.

Unless you think that some nefarious Muslim group is somehow keeping track of every American kid who has ever innocently repeated the shahada, so that they can someday (after they have taken over, I presume) accuse that kid of apostasy for “going back” to his or her actual beliefs? That is about as crazy as Jack Chick’s notion of the big computer in the Vatican that keeps track of all the Protestants so we can round them up some day.

The Plaintiff’s concern is the curriculum that falsely indoctrinates students into Islam. Anything apart from the Plaintiff’s concern is ones own speculation that does not relate to the OP.

Peace be with you

 

[oldcatholicguy]

.
I agree; a good living example from the Plaintiff’s side is revealed by our present president, when at this same high school age attended an all Muslim (Islam) school. There are some in the public and private sector who make the claim that our president is a Muslim because he recited the shaaddah as a teenager? Barrack Husseien Obama our present president, says he is a Christian? Do you think, Mr. Woods would want his daughter in the same predicament we find our current president of the United States?
The Muslims take their Islamic indoctrination very seriously, rather than have some public agency play with something very sacred to a Muslim, I would agree with you, that it be taught in a way which can prove that it does not disgrace Muslims faith and offend Mr. Woods and his daughters faith.

I think, you should ask the Christians living in a predominant Islamic country, who would probably not dare be caught by a Muslim writing about Islam and it’s tenants of faith and then get there answer?

For all other’s writing about the tenants of Islam does not make one a Muslim. This is never my position.

No, not how you incorrectly describe the recitation and not according to myself, but according to a practicing Muslim who follows Islam, according to the Quran. One would have to ask each Muslim who represents one of the seven different interpretations of the Quran, if just a simple recitation in the witness of a Muslim makes one a Muslim?
I wonder what would be the case if a teenager who is Christian, publicly innocently recited the indoctrination of Islam in the hearing of a practicing Muslim in an Islamic country would claim this teenager to be a Muslim and make this teenager a death threat if he converts away from Islam? This is just a speculation, but it points to the serious business by both Mr. Woods and a practicing Muslim in an Islamic Country would take your simple recitation by a non-Muslim.

There are many examples to this, from foreign exchange students being practicing Muslims present at this curriculum would either see all students convert at the recitation or see his Islamic faith mocked by the curriculum because it lacks the respect to Islam’s indoctrination? All who approved this Islamic curriculum is the one who needs to be brought up front and center.

Not according to a Muslim if one recites according to the Quran, which the curriculum thus far displays. Although, I would not want a public spectacle be made of a Christian water baptism by a school curriculum either.

I don’t believe the practices of Islam is discussed by the Plaintiff after one becomes a Muslim.

The Plaintiff’s concern is the curriculum that falsely indoctrinates students into Islam. Anything apart from the Plaintiff’s concern is ones own speculation that does not relate to the OP.

Peace be with you

Perhaps now you will answer the query as to what you meant by- “The school is lucky this battle warrior at the threat of his daughters soul and salvation kept his faculties about himself and did not act as a professional.”

How exactly would a professional have acted that should make the school feel it is lucky Mr. Woods didn’t act like one by keeping his faculties?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Perhaps now you will answer the query as to what you meant by- “The school is lucky this battle warrior at the threat of his daughters soul and salvation kept his faculties about himself and did not act as a professional.”

How exactly would a professional have acted that should make the school feel it is lucky Mr. Woods didn’t act like one by keeping his faculties?

Surely oldcatholicguy, your not objecting to my opinion or Mr. Woods opinion he expresses of the indoctrination of Islam as determined by his legal council?

I do not object to your opinion of Mr. Woods hiring legal council for being banned from the school premises due to his conduct.

I do not question your opinion of Mr. Woods demeanor in this OP. I only offer my opinion of thanks to Mr. Woods and for the school, for the result, which became a legal matter. Which is the correct path Mr. Woods has taken.

I have no clue on how Mr. Wood would of acted professionally in this case, nor does history prove any provocation by Mr. Wood professionally. We can only speculate on something that never happened.

If you like? I can share my own experience of professionalism on the battle field, but it will cost you a cold drink and your presence.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Surely oldcatholicguy, your not objecting to my opinion or Mr. Woods opinion he expresses of the indoctrination of Islam as determined by his legal council?

I do not object to your opinion of Mr. Woods hiring legal council for being banned from the school premises due to his conduct.

I do not question your opinion of Mr. Woods demeanor in this OP. I only offer my opinion of thanks to Mr. Woods and for the school, for the result, which became a legal matter. Which is the correct path Mr. Woods has taken.

I have no clue on how Mr. Wood would of acted professionally in this case, nor does history prove any provocation by Mr. Wood professionally. We can only speculate on something that never happened.

If you like? I can share my own experience of professionalism on the battle field, but it will cost you a cold drink and your presence.

Or in other words you won’t actually answer my question. I’ll just have to go with my initial assumption that you hold that “professional” soldier, which Mr. Woods did not act like, would have resulted to violence to get his way since you claim that the school should feel itself lucky he did not act like one.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Or in other words you won’t actually answer my question. I’ll just have to go with my initial assumption that you hold that “professional” soldier, which Mr. Woods did not act like, would have resulted to violence to get his way since you claim that the school should feel itself lucky he did not act like one.

Your opinion is respected. But don’t speak for myself or Mr. Woods.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Your opinion is respected. But don’t speak for myself or Mr. Woods.

I’m not speaking for you, I’m letting your comments and refusal to clarify them speak for you. If you don’t like what your words and refusal to clarify them are saying, that’s on you.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Congratulations on your conversion to the Islamic faith. By your very simplistic understanding of what it takes to convert to Islam you can now be considered a Muslim since you have recited (what you didn’t know that writing something qualifies as reciting something?) the Shahada and I’m sure we can get one of the Muslim posters on the forum to let us know he or she has seen your post.

Does intent play any factor?

If an actor in a play says the words on stage with Muslims in the audience, is the actor now Muslim?

If actors repeat wedding vows, and a Catholic priest is in the audience, does that make them married?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Does intent play any factor?

If an actor in a play says the words on stage with Muslims in the audience, is the actor now Muslim?

If actors repeat wedding vows, and a Catholic priest is in the audience, does that make them married?

According to the other poster intent plays no role at all. Merely saying the words in the presence of a Muslim apparently makes one a Muslim. In reality, yes intent is a rather large factor.