Issues with a Philosophy teacher

[_L]

Hey everyone, I’m currently a sophmore in a secular college, and I am taking a class in ancient and medieval philosophy this semester. I anticipated some friction with this professor considering from my observation she isn’t religious and may or may not believe in God (she is a former JW) well we started talking about Nietzche on friday and his views on religion which were not favorable by any means, and then we got on to talk about the reformation, and my professor made claims that…

The church sold salvation even going so far as to print certificates for people

The church wouldn’t let you read the Bible on your own

Now to my knowledge, indulgences on behalf of the dead were sold which was wrong, but the claim about member within the Church selling salvation to people seems absolutely ridiculous. Could anyone here give me some history on both of these points, to show her where she is in error if she ever makes claims like these again? she was talking about other things as well that I really can’t get angry over because she wasn’t teaching these things as facts but just telling us what certain people believed in regards to certain Catholic teachings, but to say the least she isn’t overtly anti-catholic, but doesn’t exactly paint with the most unbiased of brushes from my perspective.

I’d also appreciate any advice on how to handle situations like these; as you can imagine, I was getting pretty fired up over this, and it wasnt like we were having a discussion, she was just lecturing, if she had opened it up for discussion i surely would have interjected to contest some of the things she was saying in a non confrontational manner. Did I do something wrong by not speaking up? I want to remain respectful but at the same time i don’t want to be timid about speaking up in situations like these. And besides things ive read on Catholic apologetics sites I really didnt have any solid unbiased historical foundation to shoot down some of the things she said. I would appreciate it if any of you could give me some resources that could help with that.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Ask her to show you **proof **that the church allegedly printed certificates for people, and from a non JW source. Anybody can make a claim like that. If she argues, point out that if you were writing a thesis on philosophy, she’d expect references that could be checked. Ditto for her claims about the Catholic Church.

Similarly with other issues, ask her for historical proof going back to source and / or peer reviewed documents.

Meanwhile unless the topics you are dealing with specifically have religious overtones, I’d leave the issue of religion out of it, or you might find you make an enemy you don’t need.

If the philosophy topics do have an inference for religious beliefs, then stick to your guns. But you also have to make a case for your beliefs based on Philosophy principles and not dogmatic church rulings. You’re studying philosophy, not religion.

 

[JRKH]

Ask her to show you **proof **that the church allegedly printed certificates for people, and from a non JW source. Anybody can make a claim like that. If she argues, point out that if you were writing a thesis on philosophy, she’d expect references that could be checked. Ditto for her claims about the Catholic Church.

Similarly with other issues, ask her for historical proof going back to source and / or peer reviewed documents.

Meanwhile unless the topics you are dealing with specifically have religious overtones, I’d leave the issue of religion out of it, or you might find you make an enemy you don’t need.

If the philosophy topics do have an inference for religious beliefs, then stick to your guns. But you also have to make a case for your beliefs based on Philosophy principles and not dogmatic church rulings. You’re studying philosophy, not religion.

This is great advice.
I have found that the best defense when someone makes such an accusation is to ask them to back it up with reputable sources. Generally the sources provided, once investigated, will be refutable.

In the case of “selling salvation” - she probably mis-spoke and is refering to the oft trotted out “selling indulgences”.

As to other charge that, “The church wouldn’t let you read the Bible on your own”, in a sense that was true and still is. For while we are welcome to read the bible on our own, we must not do “outside” of the understandings and teachings fo The Church. In other words, private “reading” is fine, but “private interpretation” is not.

If you do pursue this with her, you will likely get into a number of easily refutable arguments such as:
“Catholics burned bibles” - Yes they did. Unauthorized versions of the Bible.
"Catholics chained Bibles to the pulpit. - Yes, because before the Printing press Bibles were extremely expensive.
“Catholics not allowed to own Bibles” - Many unauthorized bibles containing errors were being distributed. These Bibles were not permitted for a catholic to own.

And so on…

Peace
James

 

[asia53]

Your post made me so curious–I had to do some research. I found an article on Indulgence in Wikipedia,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

I found this part of the article interesting:

“In 1392, more than a century before Martin Luther published the 95 Theses, Pope Boniface IX wrote to the Bishop of Ferrara condemning the practice of certain members of religious orders who falsely claimed that they were authorized by the pope to forgive all sorts of sins, and exacted money from the simple-minded among the faithful by promising them perpetual happiness in this world and eternal glory in the next.”

I can’t attest to the validity of the article, however, I think, this is what your teacher means.

I hope this helps. Please don’t get angry at her—read, learn–that’s your best defense.

As to Bible reading, I’m taking a class on the Gospel of St. John. Several of my classmates say, they were discouraged from reading the Bible by their parrish priests when they were younger. These classmates are all over 60 years old, and grew up all over the U.S. I’m thinking, it’s a generational thing.

 

[JRKH]

Your post made me so curious–I had to do some research. I found an article on Indulgence in Wikipedia,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

I found this part of the article interesting:

“In 1392, more than a century before Martin Luther published the 95 Theses, Pope Boniface IX wrote to the Bishop of Ferrara condemning the practice of certain members of religious orders who falsely claimed that they were authorized by the pope to forgive all sorts of sins, and exacted money from the simple-minded among the faithful by promising them perpetual happiness in this world and eternal glory in the next.”

I can’t attest to the validity of the article, however, I think, this is what your teacher means.

I hope this helps. Please don’t get angry at her—read, learn–that’s your best defense.

As to Bible reading, I’m taking a class on the Gospel of St. John. Several of my classmates say, they were discouraged from reading the Bible by their parrish priests when they were younger. These classmates are all over 60 years old, and grew up all over the U.S. I’m thinking, it’s a generational thing.

My mother also said this to me years ago. She is now in her eighties. So yes I think it was a “generational thing”. However, being “discouraged” is a long way from being “forbidden”.

Peace
James

 

[asia53]

My mother also said this to me years ago. She is now in her eighties. So yes I think it was a “generational thing”. However, being “discouraged” is a long way from being “forbidden”.

Peace
James

True

God bless you,

Asia

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Ask her to show you **proof **that the church allegedly printed certificates for people, and from a non JW source. Anybody can make a claim like that. If she argues, point out that if you were writing a thesis on philosophy, she’d expect references that could be checked. Ditto for her claims about the Catholic Church.

Similarly with other issues, ask her for historical proof going back to source and / or peer reviewed documents.

Meanwhile unless the topics you are dealing with specifically have religious overtones, I’d leave the issue of religion out of it, or you might find you make an enemy you don’t need.

If the philosophy topics do have an inference for religious beliefs, then stick to your guns. But you also have to make a case for your beliefs based on Philosophy principles and not dogmatic church rulings. You’re studying philosophy, not religion.

I would advise caution however.

Much of the negative history about the Catholic Church which we are taught in schools, comes from what is known as “The Black Legends.” The Black Legends was propaganda put out by anti-Catholic nations such as Great Britain who were at war with Catholic Spain and Portugal. These writings ended up in Western History Books and are believed as being factual.

This teacher can easily produce historical books and articles supporting these negeative accusations against the Church, but they’re not necessarily accurate.

Since Pope John Paul II opened the Vatican Archives on the Inquisitions and such, historians are finding that much of what was taught in regard to the Catholic Church was exaggerated or false.

Jim

 

[Captain_America]

The historical reality is more complex than your teacher suggests.

It’s a pretty poor philosophy teacher who injects her own dogma into a class; much better to run things in an open way and generate discussion from everybody. I’m surprised she appears not to have much respect for religion: one would think a thoughtful person might realize, after some early skepticism perhaps, that religious thinking is serious stuff.

 

[MarianD]

This is exactly what we “learned” in 8th grade when we talked about the Dark Ages. It wasn’t until much later (specifically, this year) that I learned that it’s all a bogus oversimplification. And some teachers are still trying to indoctrinate students with that in English and Latin class now that I’m in 12th grade.

Here’s the truth:

• The Church never sold salvation. Corrupt priests and monks used to go around selling indulgences (and I believe some Popes encouraged it), but this is far different than salvation. This was never a doctrine and was never sanctioned by the Magisterium (all the Bishops in communion with the Pope). It was simply a corruption.
• The Church discouraged the reading of the Bible because many people were illiterate and would not understand it. In addition, Bibles weren’t printed until long after the Church was established and even then, it caused over a year’s worth of wages to buy. So instead of encouraging people to read the Bible, the Church instead taught through pictures. Stained glass windows are a way the Church taught using this method.

 

[Wildkit]

As we all know, during the Reformation period, likely more than 70-80% of people were literate and well versed. These people could read, write,…….er wait, my mistake. It is estimated that less than 10% of the European populace could read. The Bible that a Church had was invaluable, in fact, some communities would chain it to the front door of the Church for people to read,……mind you, all 7 – 8%,………wow!!!

As has been described, be careful. When one asks for a reference, when there is none to be had, that typically stops the tirade of nonsense.

God bless you!

 

[MarianD]

In addition, Bibles weren’t printed until long after the Church was established and even then, it caused over a year’s worth of wages to buy.

Meant “cost”

 

[James224]

Your post made me so curious–I had to do some research. I found an article on Indulgence in Wikipedia,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

I found this part of the article interesting:

“In 1392, more than a century before Martin Luther published the 95 Theses, Pope Boniface IX wrote to the Bishop of Ferrara condemning the practice of certain members of religious orders who falsely claimed that they were authorized by the pope to forgive all sorts of sins, and exacted money from the simple-minded among the faithful by promising them perpetual happiness in this world and eternal glory in the next.”

I can’t attest to the validity of the article, however, I think, this is what your teacher means.

I hope this helps. Please don’t get angry at her—read, learn–that’s your best defense.

As to Bible reading, I’m taking a class on the Gospel of St. John. Several of my classmates say, they were discouraged from reading the Bible by their parrish priests when they were younger. These classmates are all over 60 years old, and grew up all over the U.S. I’m thinking, it’s a generational thing.

Hi Asia53,

It dawned on me reading your post that it looks like sort of an indulgence when some of these non-denomnational churches promote telling their members to send them money and happiness and prosperity will come their way! they come close to saying that God will bless you and forgive you if you send them money!

 

[asia53]

Hi Asia53,

It dawned on me reading your post that it looks like sort of an indulgence when some of these non-denomnational churches promote telling their members to send them money and happiness and prosperity will come their way! they come close to saying that God will bless you and forgive you if you send them money!

You know, I hadn’t thought of it that way. You do have a point.

What I was trying to say, as Marion D pointed out, it was corruption within Mother Church, not sanctioned or authorized by Mother Church. A few popes refilled the papal coffers with a couple of Crusades.