It is a greater act of charity to convert a sinner or deliver a soul from Purgatory?

[TominAdelaide]

I’m not sure if this question has ever been formally defined by the Church, but this is from “Stories about Purgatory and What They Reveal” by an Ursiline of Sligo (the work has the nihil obstat and imprimatur):

Two distinguished members of the Dominican Order, Father Bertrand and Father Benedict, were one day engaged in the discussion of the question—whether it is an act of greater charity to labor for the relief of the souls in Purgatory or for the conversion of sinners? Father Bertrand took the latter view, and said that Our Divine Lord came on earth expressly to seek and save the sinner—that he is in continual danger of being eternally lost, and that to co-operate in his salvation is to participate in the work of redemption; while, on the other hand, he argued that the souls in Purgatory are already in a state of security as to their future felicity, and that if they suffer torments it is only for a time, after which they shall enjoy the endless glories of Paradise.

Father Benedict defended the cause of the Holy Souls in Purgatory, and remarked that Our Blessed Lord after His death descended in person to deliver them; that if sinners are immersed in sin the fault is their own; that they can, with God’s grace, free themselves whenever they so wish; while the souls in Purgatory are detained in cruel sufferings without the possibility of doing anything toward their own relief. That in the same way as it would be more praiseworthy to assist a poor invalid who has not the use of his limbs than a mendicant who is strong and need not remain in wretchedness except from choice, thus also is it more meritorious to concern oneself about the souls in Purgatory than about sinners, though, of course, well-regulated charity will be solicitous about both.

But Father Bertrand did not yield to these strong arguments, and in consequence Our Lord permitted one of the suffering souls to come to him at night bearing a heavy burden, which he placed on the shoulders of the religious, causing him almost intolerable fatigue and pain. He thus understood by experience the truth which he had argued against in his discussion. From that time forth he applied himself with great diligence to the aid of the Suffering Souls, and became as remarkable for devotion to them as before he had appeared wanting in that respect. It would appear as if the authority of St. Thomas might be quoted on the side of Father Benedict, as he says: “Prayer for the dead is more acceptable than for the living, for the dead are in greater need of it, and cannot help themselves as the living can.”

https://www.amazon.com/Stories-about-Purgatory-What-Reveal/dp/0895557991/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=“Stories+about+Purgatory+and+What+They+Reveal”&qid=1593513443&sr=8-1

 

[Autumnfa]

St Benedict is my favorite and it’s true what he says. Yes you’re saving souls either way, but the souls in purgatory cant pray for themselves and can’t move on. So helping the ones who can’t help them selves weigh more.

 

[Montrose]

Converting a sinner is more important. Souls in Purgatory are already saved. The sinner is not.

 

[fredystairs]

In reply to the OP…

Yes

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Just pray for both the living and the dead.
No need to make a competition out of it.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Just to clarify: we cannot convert anyone. Only the Holy Spirit can move them to the Truth. We can only proclaim the good news, speak of what we have seen and heard. The rest is up to God.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Just to clarify: we cannot convert anyone. Only the Holy Spirit can move them to the Truth. We can only proclaim the good news, speak of what we have seen and heard. The rest is up to God.

Well, technically we can’t deliver a soul from Purgatory either. We pray, do penance, get indulgences, have Mass said etc but God decides when the soul goes to Heaven. For all we know he’ll make that soul sit in Purgatory till the end of the world.

This is actually about where it’s best to direct our prayers and efforts in the hope it will result in a conversion or a deliverance.

 

[TominAdelaide]

We pray, do penance, get indulgences, have Mass said etc but God decides when the soul goes to Heaven. For all we know he’ll make that soul sit in Purgatory till the end of the world.

During the first apparition at Fatima (on May 13, 1917) Lucia asked Mary about two of her friends who had died. Mary replied that one was in Heaven, but the other, Amelia, would be in Purgatory until the end of the world.

Also, Fr Nageleisen (in his work “Charity for the Suffering Souls: An Explanation of the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory” (the work has the imprimatur)) included a Church-approved apparition from 1870 where a nun asked her father (who was in Purgatory) about some details of Purgatory. Her father noted that there are some souls in Purgatory who will be there until the end of the world:

Sister Seraphine asked her father whether it was true that the torments of Purgatory surpassed in their intensity the sufferings of the martyrs. “It is but too true,” was his reply. Then she inquired whether all members of the Confraternity of Our Lady of Mount Carmel that wore the scapular are released from Purgatory on the first Saturday after their death. “Yes,” he replied, “if they have faithfully fulfilled all the conditions.” To the question, “Is it true that some souls must remain in Purgatory for fifty years?” he answered, “Yes; and there are souls that are sentenced to atone in it till the end of the world.”

Also, in “An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory” (the work has the imprimatur) the author notes that God may not apply the full benefit of an indulgence to a soul in Purgatory (in punishment to the soul for not making use of indulgences while living in the world):

It is true that we have no inclination to sin, but we are no longer in the reign of Mercy but under that of Divine Justice, so that we receive only what God wants us to have. When a soul is near the object of its desires, namely Heaven, it may be delivered and admitted to eternal joy by the efficacy of one plenary indulgence well gained, or even gained only in half and applied to its intentions, but for other souls it is not so. They have often during life despised or made little use of indulgences, and God who is always just, rewards them according to their works. They gain something, as it pleases God, but hardly ever the full benefit of the indulgence.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

It is true that we have no inclination to sin…

Illness is a disorder in the order. Because God created man wholesome and perfect. The disorder caused by Satan in the order given by God, has brought with it the illness of the flesh and its consequences, that is, death or sorrowful heredity. Man inherited from Adam and Eve the original sin. But not only that. And, the stain has expanded wider and wider embracing the the three branches of man: the flesh; more and more vicious and consequently weak and diseased, the morals; prouder and prouder and thus corrupted, the spirit; more and more skeptical and thus more and more idolatrous.

In man there are two memories opposed to each other: the memory of the Infinite Good; the memory of the hereditary lustful poison. The first, was left by God for the consolation of man, fallen from his primeval and perfect Grace and Innocence, from that virginity of spirit which, except for Mary, was no longer a dowry among those born of man. The second memory, was left by Satan in the heart of Adam and in those of his descendants, with the assault of the innocent virginity of Adam in Eden.

Baptism annuls the stain but not the incitement. Grace infuses strength to conquer the incitement, but does not annul it. It remains like a secret thorn to irritate the indelible scar of the Fault. Not the wound: the scar. But, if we’re not vigilant, the scar, if irritated and not treated with supernatural means, becomes a wound again.

In every man there are then two opposed forces which fight in him from birth til death and which constitute his test, his victory or his defeat with regard to his supernatural destiny.

Continued…

 

[Lunam_Meam]

You may ask why God leaves this incitement even after the restoration of Grace [in man]? Out of justice. All in God is justice. His every operation is justice and loving justice.

Has not God perhaps left the memory of Himself in the soul created by Him? That memory which is a mysterious source of light which guides to the Light, though sensed in a different way by every living spirit, as is demonstrated by the moral laws of the best [civilizations] and by the more or less vivid gleams of supernatural light in the various revealed religions. Though these latter possess only fragmentary notions, they already teach the existence of a Supreme Being and the duty to live justly in order to possess Him beyond life.

Thus similarly, besides this Infinite Goodness, God leaves [in us] the other memory represented by the thorn of incitement. This keeps our pride at heel. If we felt like we were pure and perfect men, we would become Lucifers, believing that we are equal to God. It keeps our good will vigilant. It makes our love for God heroic. And, through the Father’s compassion, it renders our faults less grave in His eyes. Because if we do not have in ourselves that incitement which agitates and bites our senses and reason with the cunning of the ancient serpent, who generates it, we would not be judged “with mercy”. But much is forgiven us because much in ourselves is aroused not by our pure will, but by the imponderable forces of that incitement — which we do not always succeed in repressing.

But, we should not afflict ourselves. It, too, serves to give a crown of glory. Because temptation is temptation; it is not sin. Because temptation conquered, is victory. Because enduring that secret thorn, without the will consenting to its seductions, is heroic patience.

Is it a greater act of charity to convert a sinner, or deliver a soul from Purgatory?

Regarding souls on earth, no one has ever truly arrived, until his “walk” is finished, that is, no one is sure of having merited glory, until his time has ended, and immortality has begun. Therefore, we should be charitable towards all.

Regarding souls in Purgatory, it’s a place that precedes Heaven, and is inescapable for many, though a temporary stay, for they are assured eternal life in Heaven. Souls on earth who perform acts of charity attain merit, which will speed up the process of their own purgation, and for others already there — for a better understanding of what I mean read further on.

Therefore, the greatest thing we can do is be charitable (1 Corinthians 13:13).

The souls immersed in the flames of Purgatory suffer only from love

Not undeserving of possessing the Light, but not worthy to enter therein immediately either, into the Kingdom of Light, these, on presenting themselves to God, are assailed by the Light. It is a brief, advance blessedness which makes them certain of their salvation, and aware of what their eternity will be like, and knowledge regarding what they did to their souls, defrauding them of years of blessed possession of God. Then, immersed in the place of purgation, they are assailed by the flames of expiation.

Continued…

 

[Lunam_Meam]

The flames are a fire of Love. They purify by inflaming souls with love. They give Love because, when the soul has therein attained the love it did not attain on earth, it is freed from them, and joined to Love in Heaven.

What does the Triune God want for the souls created by Him? Good.
What feelings does the One who wants Good for a creature have for the creature? Feelings of love.

What are the first and second commandments, the two most important ones, the ones regarding which Jesus said that there were no others greater, and that in them was the key to reaching eternal life? It is the commandment of love: “Love God with all your strength; love your neighbor as yourself”. Through His mouth, and that of the Prophets and Saints, what has Jesus said on multiple occasions? That charity is the greatest form of absolution. Charity consumes the sins and the weaknesses of man, for whoever loves in God, and in living in God he sins little, and if he sins, he immediately repents, and for whoever repents is the forgiveness of the Most High.

What did the souls fail in? In Love. If they had loved much, they would have committed few and slight sins, connected with their weakness and imperfection. But, they never would have reached the conscious obstinacy in even venial sin. They would have endeavored not to grieve their Love, and Love, seeing their good will, would have absolved them even of the venial sins committed.

How is reparation made for a sin, even on earth? By expiating it, and, if one can scarcely do so, through the means whereby it was committed. With the one who has done damage, by restoring what he has taken away with overbearance. With the one who has defamed, by retracting the defamation, and so on.

Now, if poor human justice wants this, won’t the holy justice of God want it? And, what means will God use to obtain reparation? Himself–that is, Love–and by demanding love.

This God, whom we have offended, and who loves us in a fatherly way, and wants to unite Himself to His creatures, leads us to obtain this union through Himself.

Everything hinges on Love, except for the real “dead”, the damned. For these “dead ones” Love, too, is dead. But, for the three realms–the heaviest one: the Earth; the one where the weight of matter is abolished, but not of the soul weighed down by sin: Purgatory; and, finally the one where the inhabitants share with their Father the spiritual nature which frees them from every encumbrance --the motor is Love. It is by loving on Earth that we work for Heaven. It is by loving in Purgatory that we conquer Heaven, which in life we were unable to merit. It is by loving in Paradise that we enjoy Heaven.

When a soul is in Purgatory, it does nothing but love, reflect, and repent in the light of Love, which for its sake has ignited those flames, which are already God, but which conceal God from it for its punishment.

Continued…

 

[TominAdelaide]

Thanks for your interesting reflections on original sin (and its consequences) @Lunam_Meam and on the meaning of Purgatory. I should note that the quote I posted from the “An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory”, it was a soul in Purgatory who said “It is true that we have no inclination to sin…” Obviously, a human on earth couldn’t say that due to the consequences of original sin which you refer to in your post.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

This is the torment. The soul recalls the vision of God received in the private judgement. It bears that memory with it, and since having only glimpsed God is a joy surpassing every created thing, the soul is anxious to experience that joy again. That memory of God and that ray of light which have assailed it in its appearance before God makes the soul “see” the true significance of the faults committed against its Good, and this “seeing” together with the thought that because of those faults it has voluntarily deprived itself of the possession of Heaven, and of union with God of years or centuries, constitutes is purgative affliction.

Love, and the certainty of having offended Love, is the torment of those being purged. The more a soul has been at fault in life, the more it is as if blinded by spiritual cataracts which make knowing, and reaching that perfect loving repentance which is the first factor of its purgation, and entry into the Kingdom of God more difficult for it. The more a soul has oppressed with with sin, the more love is weighed down and sluggish. As it is cleansed by the power of Love, its resurrection to love is accelerated and, consequently, its conquest of Love, which is completed at the moment when, with the end of expiation, and the reaching of the perfection of love it is admitted into the City of God.

It is necessary to pray a lot so that these souls, that suffer to reach Joy, may be swift in attaining the perfect love which absolves them and unites them to God. Our prayers and our acts of intercession are as many increases in loving fire. They increase the burning. But–oh, blessed torment!–they also increase the capacity for loving. They speed up the process for purgation. They raise the souls immersed in that fire higher and higher degrees. They carry them to the threshold of the Light. They open the gates to Light, finally, and introduce the soul into Heaven.

To each of these operations, provoked by our charity towards those who have preceded us into the second life, there corresponds a leap in charity for us. The charity of God, who thanks us for providing for His children in affliction, and the charity of the afflicted, who thank us for working to introduce them into the joy of God.

Never do your loved ones you love so much as after earthly death, for their love is now infused with the Light of God, and in this Light they understand how you love them, and how they should have loved you.

They can no longer say words to you that ask for forgiveness and provide love. But they say them to Jesus for us, and He takes us these words of our dead, who are now able to see and love us as they should. He takes them to us together with their request for love and their blessing. A blessing already valid from Purgatory on, for it is already infused with the inflamed Charity which burns and purifies them. Perfectly valid, later, from the moment when, freed, they come to meet you on the threshold of Life or rejoin you therein, if you have already preceded them into the Kingdom of Love.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

I should note that the quote I posted from the “An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory”, it was a soul in Purgatory who said “It is true that we have no inclination to sin…” Obviously, a human on earth couldn’t say that due to the consequences of original sin which you refer to in your post.

My apologies in misreading.

Thanks for your interesting reflections on original sin (and its consequences) @Lunam_Meam and on the meaning of Purgatory.

You’re welcome. Thank you for sharing and reading.

 

[nicoleandrian]

Converting a sinner saves someone from eternal damnation. Purgatory only releases a soul already saved. The answer is pretty obvious to me. I think even the souls in purgatory would agree. Save souls! Save souls! In 20 million years the poor soul who was not converted will still be in hell forever. But a soul in purgatory will have long been in heavenly bliss by then. To participate in the Holy Spirit’s work of converting souls is a far greater act.