It is ever ok to commit perjury? Maybe so?

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According to the CCC, perjury is an intrinsically evil act, so it is never permissible. But what if a person on the witness stand were threatened by the mob that if they incriminated a leading mobster, they would hurt, even kill, his or her family members? Suppose the witness saw this as a credible threat, and the threat were given in a creative manner shortly before he gets on the stand. What now? Sin? No sin? To what extent?

Or do we just say that it is still a sin, only the person committing the perjury in such a case would be less culpable due to the duress?
 
TheAdvocate said:
According to the CCC, perjury is an intrinsically evil act, so it is never permissible. But what if a person on the witness stand were threatened by the mob that if they incriminated a leading mobster, they would hurt, even kill, his or her family members? Suppose the witness saw this as a credible threat, and the threat were given in a creative manner shortly before he gets on the stand. What now? Sin? No sin? To what extent?

Or do we just say that it is still a sin, only the person committing the perjury in such a case would be less culpable due to the duress?
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In your scenario above, what assurance do you have that you will not be killed if you do not testify to ensure “the mobster” never has to worry about you in the future?
You present a difficult scenario where the probablilty is very high that you are going to killed regardless, whether you testify or not.
On one scale you place your family and on the other you place evil and then you ask which is more important for me, to support my family or be forced to support evil? Clearly your family is of more value, but will you really be able to protect them.
From a purely thearetical position it seems that the better option is to protect your family by attacking the evil - self defense. I guess that is why they have the Federal Witness Protection Plan for such difficult cases.
The mobster will not be less evil if you do not testify and the threat will not go away if you do not testify as they mobster knows, you will always know to much.
 
TheAdvocate said:
According to the CCC, perjury is an intrinsically evil act, so it is never permissible. But what if a person on the witness stand were threatened by the mob that if they incriminated a leading mobster, they would hurt, even kill, his or her family members? Suppose the witness saw this as a credible threat, and the threat were given in a creative manner shortly before he gets on the stand. What now? Sin? No sin? To what extent?

Or do we just say that it is still a sin, only the person committing the perjury in such a case would be less culpable due to the duress?
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See the Catechism para 2464-2513. Hope that helps.
 
The property manager at a government institution I worked for at one time was caught stealing material and brought to trial. One of his underlings was on the stand and dithering around in his answers. When the judge ordered him to give clear answers he said, " I can’t" and pointing to the defendant said, “He says he will kill me if I do.”

The manager was convicted and served a term in prison. When he got out he sued to get his job back. :rolleyes:
 
I think of situations that occurred in Nazi Germany where innocent people could have been sent to their deaths based on association. I would be willing to commit perjury to save people’s lives.
 
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Lutheran theologian in Germany (executed by the Nazis in 1945) posits an interesting problem in a less rigorous environment than a criminal trial. What if the teacher in a class says to one of his students, “Your father is a drunk, isn’t he?” Must the child admit it or can she deny it, thereby protecting her father. Bonhoeffer would say that it was OK to deny the charge.
 
What if the teacher in a class says to one of his students, “Your father is a drunk, isn’t he?” Must the child admit it or can she deny it, thereby protecting her father. Bonhoeffer would say that it was OK to deny the charge.
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Well, worded like that it could easily be denied because the term “drunk” is a pejorative term, not a precise medical term, and one could, I really do believe, refuse to acknowledge it as a legitimate or valid expression in a court of law, denying it without sin even if the defandant was aware of an issue with alcohol abuse.
 
TheAdvocate said:
According to the CCC, perjury is an intrinsically evil act, so it is never permissible. But what if a person on the witness stand were threatened by the mob that if they incriminated a leading mobster, they would hurt, even kill, his or her family members? Suppose the witness saw this as a credible threat, and the threat were given in a creative manner shortly before he gets on the stand. What now? Sin? No sin? To what extent?

Or do we just say that it is still a sin, only the person committing the perjury in such a case would be less culpable due to the duress?
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Lying is a grave sin against the eigth commandment. If done in conjunction with knowlege and consent it is a mortal sin.

In the case you describe the individual would have their consent impinged upon by threats - ergo it would not be a mortal sin; but would still be a grave sin.
 
Did the Vatican secretary of state lie by faking baptisms of Jews and sending lists of “baptized” Jews to the German Ambassador? catholicleague.org/pius.php?id=36
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Well, that isn’t perjury. Perjury is knowingly providing false public testimony in a court of law (that one is genuinely subject to) while under oath to speak only the truth.

The Secretary of State of the Holy See isn’t subject to the authorities of another country and isn’t obliged to provide an enemy of the state with truthful information in any case.
 
Lying is a grave sin against the eigth commandment. If done in conjunction with knowlege and consent it is a mortal sin.
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Oh, come now, lying isn’t a grave sin when the nature of the lie is trivial. For example, if a 40 year-old woman is asked her age and she replies “38”, that’s certainly not a mortal sin. It might not even be a venial sin if it isn’t any of the questioner’s business.
 
JohnDamian said:
Lying is a grave sin against the eigth commandment. If done in conjunction with knowlege and consent it is a mortal sin. . . …
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While lying violates the eighth commandment, lying under oath [perjury] also violates the second commandment because you are misusing God’s name.
 
Pregustator said:
Well, that isn’t perjury. Perjury is knowingly providing false public testimony in a court of law (that one is genuinely subject to) while under oath to speak only the truth.

…
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I agree, but the thread has wandered off to lying in general. See posts 10 and 12 for example.
 
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