"It is finished"

[nablaise]

Hello,

I understand that when the Lord Jesus said on the cross “it is finished” he was talkinga bout the passover. I have read a little detailed explanation of Scott Hahn.
But In the particular document I read, I think he did not explain something or I missed it:

When Jesus said “I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I am with you in the Kingdom of heaven”, he did not drink wine until on the cross when he said " I am first" and was given that vinegear (explained as having to do with wine) on the cross.
St. John reports that after he has taken it he said 'It is fninished"

I understand that the Church teaches that it was the passover (which had started in The Upper Room) which was finished.

But for those who are following me, how did he drink that cup with his disciples?

God bless

 

[thistle]

Hello,

I understand that when the Lord Jesus said on the cross “it is finished” he was talkinga bout the passover. I have read a little detailed explanation of Scott Hahn.
But In the particular document I read, I think he did not explain something or I missed it:

When Jesus said “I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I am with you in the Kingdom of heaven”, he did not drink wine until on the cross when he said " I am first" and was given that vinegear (explained as having to do with wine) on the cross.
St. John reports that after he has taken it he said 'It is fninished"

I understand that the Church teaches that it was the passover (which had started in The Upper Room) which was finished.

But for those who are following me, how did he drink that cup with his disciples?

God bless

Jesus did not drink wine on the cross. He was given vinegar (sour wine). Sour wine is NOT wine!!

 

[nablaise]

Thanks for the reply,

But isn’t sour wine still a fruit of the vine…?

God bless

 

[YADA]

When Jesus said “I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I am with you in the Kingdom of heaven”, he did not drink wine until on the cross when he said “** I am first”** and was given that vinegear (explained as having to do with wine) on the cross.

Jesus said "I thirst" not I am first

And, I believe Dr. Hahn’s point is that this would be the Cup of Consummation [4th cup] that ends the Passover Seder …

The third cup of a seder is refered to as the “Blessing Cup” or “Cup of Blessing” which is how St. Paul refers to the Eucharistic Cup.

As for Jesus promise not to drink it until he drinks it with them in Heaven … Jesus is more present to the Apostles [and to us] after the completion of His Passion then He was before … in many of the appearances after the Resurrestion Jesus is recognozed in the Breaking of Bread [Eucharistic Sacrifice] which he ate with them [in similar manner to the Last Supper]…

To fullfill the old [Passover] Jesus needed to complete the meal … reach the conclusion [consumation] and then He could fully institute the new [Eucharist] … which we have today

Complex subject … hard to explain concisely and clearly in a short post I wish I was a better “splainer”

 

[nablaise]

Thanks for the correction! strange typo!!! ( I guess I was thinking 'I am thirsty…")

Thanks also for the reply. I knew it is related to the Eucharist.
I was just looking for good terms to describe how by participating in communion we are drinking with him.

About being ‘closer to now with communion than before’ that’s a great way to put it.

Thanks

 

[YADA]

Funny that being closer … our priest spoke about that on the Ascension Sunday …

That is what Jesus was trying to teach the Apostles … Jesus while he walked the earth [Incarnate] was in time and space … After the Resurrection he is with us and every where … through time … past, present and future, Alpha/Omega

We experience Jesus everywhere but we are present with Him in the Eucharist in an intimate andpersonal way … He literally offers Himself to us and we tke Him and feed upon Him … He is the Cup of Blessing…He is the Bread of Life Come Down from Heaven … He feed us and nourishes our souls in a way he could not do during His earthly ministry where He was limited to the lands aorund Jerusalem … Today, Jesus comes to us in all of the four corners of the world …

 

[Nita]

Hello,
…
When Jesus said “I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I am with you in the Kingdom of heaven”, he did not drink wine until on the cross when he said " I am first" and was given that vinegear (explained as having to do with wine) on the cross.
St. John reports that after he has taken it he said 'It is fninished"
…
But for those who are following me, how did he drink that cup with his disciples?

I believe Jesus was speaking of the Eucharistic wine which He would drink in and with His apostles (and successive bishops/priests) at all future Masses. (At Mass the priest is there in the person of Christ; Our Lord is present acting within the priest.)

The primary verse which directed my thoughts along this path was:
Mt. 26:28-29 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I shall not drink again of this **fruit of the vine **until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."

1. The “fruit of the vine” He was holding was consecrated wine - Our Lord Himself, His blood.
   The Scripture passage in John 15:1-5, regarding Jesus being the vine, is beautiful to contemplate in connection with Mt. 26:29.
   John 15:1-5 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

(In Mark’s gospel the statement is also recorded after the wine has been consecrated. In Luke’s gospel, it is before.)

1. The phrase “fruit of the vine” occurs in Scripture only three times; and that is in the three synoptic Last Supper accounts. (Mt. 26:29; Mark 14:25; Lk 22:18)
2. All 3 Last Supper accounts record that it will be in the “Kingdom” when Jesus drinks it with them.
   Matthew - “…new in My Father’s kingdom”
   Mark - “…new in the kingdom of God”
   Luke - “…until the kingdom of God”

The “kingdom” consists of the Church in heaven and the Church on earth. Since the apostles were to continue to live on earth, celebrating the Eucharist as Jesus’ commanded, I think the kingdom Jesus was referring to was the Catholic Church, the Church of the *New *Covenant. There, in the Mass, He drinks it “new” with His priests. It is the most awesome part of the “new wine” He spoke of in His parable of the new wine and new wineskins (Matt 9:17).

Nita

 

[smkw]

Jesus said "I thirst" not I am first

And, I believe Dr. Hahn’s point is that this would be the Cup of Consummation [4th cup] that ends the Passover Seder …

The third cup of a seder is refered to as the “Blessing Cup” or “Cup of Blessing” which is how St. Paul refers to the Eucharistic Cup.

As for Jesus promise not to drink it until he drinks it with them in Heaven … Jesus is more present to the Apostles [and to us] after the completion of His Passion then He was before … in many of the appearances after the Resurrestion Jesus is recognozed in the Breaking of Bread [Eucharistic Sacrifice] which he ate with them [in similar manner to the Last Supper]…

To fullfill the old [Passover] Jesus needed to complete the meal … reach the conclusion [consumation] and then He could fully institute the new [Eucharist] … which we have today

Complex subject … hard to explain concisely and clearly in a short post I wish I was a better “splainer”

 

[smkw]

Just finished reading Scott Hahn’s paper on this topic. I am wondering if anyone knows more about this 4th cup. Was this a tradition in the time of Jesus as part of the Passover meal? How would we know?
Found an article from the King’s College Center for Catholic Jewish Learning that said that the Passover Seder’s most important element is the Haggadah and this was only drawn up around the 7th or 8th century (A.D.) and further that aside from the immolation of the lamb in the Temple of Jerusalem and the family eating of certain pieces of it, the New Testament tells us nothing of the manner of celebrating the Passover and there are no contemporary sources.
So…where does this fourth cup idea come from?
I’d be very interested to know if anyone can enlighten me.
Thanks.
smkw

 

[Robin_L.in_TX]

Interesting topic…

Marty Barrack in Second Exodus says that the High Priest, when the last Passover Lamb was sacrificed would say in Hebrew, "It is Finished–emphasizing Jesus as the Eternal High Priest.

Also in Jesus of Nazareth, the Pope’s new book, sees the Kingdom as Jesus Himself. Thus the Church is Kingdom because it is in Him, just as we are as well. Only so closely as we, individuals and Church, are uniting our wills to His through the sacraments and prayer.

Since we couldn’t be united to Him until He returned to the Father allowing us, if in a state of grace, to be in communion with Him who is One with the Father.

Powerful, awesome stuff that has either been forgotten or watered down.

In Christ’s peace and joy,

Robin L. in TX

 

[adriancombe]

Hello,

I understand that when the Lord Jesus said on the cross “it is finished” he was talkinga bout the passover. I have read a little detailed explanation of Scott Hahn.
But In the particular document I read, I think he did not explain something or I missed it:

When Jesus said “I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I am with you in the Kingdom of heaven”, he did not drink wine until on the cross when he said " I am first" and was given that vinegear (explained as having to do with wine) on the cross.
St. John reports that after he has taken it he said 'It is fninished"

I understand that the Church teaches that it was the passover (which had started in The Upper Room) which was finished.

But for those who are following me, how did he drink that cup with his disciples?

God bless

Dr. Hahn mentioned this in class as well. The problem for him at the time he discovered this was most scholars seemed to be assuming ‘it is finished’ meant Jesus’ work. This is a problem because that is not in the context. Also, His work included the Resurrection, so it couldn’t be finished yet.

In my exchanges with anti-Catholics, I have found the Resurrection argument usually less than conclusive for them. The context isn’t decisive either.

This may seem a pyrrhic victory, but there is an easier way to overcome this objection:

Jhn 17:4 KJV - I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

So, if it is finished before the Passion, something else must be the antecedent when He is dying.