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godsent
Guest
When jesus said this,doesnt this cancel out the idea of purgatory as nothing else was needed?
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threej_lc
Guest
Christ is referring to his role in offering us salvation and obtaining all the graces we could potentially recieve, not our role in accepting it. Otherwise, why would we need baptism, confession, faith, etc?
Josh
Josh
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mike182d
Guest
Scott Hahn has an excellent video entitled: “the Fourth Cup.”
In it, he describes a typical Jewish passover feast and how they will drink from the fruit of the vine at four different times, the last of which completes the passover feast. In the Passion narrative, the celebration of Passover with His disciples had not been finished before being interrupted by His execution. When Christ speaks the words “it is finished,” he does so after tasting the wine on the hysop branch (the fourth cup of the feast) and concludes the new Passover.
Scott Hahn does a much better job explaining this, but that’s what I can remember from memory.
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BayCityRickL
Guest
Thank you one and all.
A very important question and some interesting answers. Once again, the scripture is so compact and dense in meaning, that we have to have help, like from Scott Hahn, to explain the levels of meaning.
After saying “it is finished” Jesus died on the cross. The work of salvation had been accomplished. It is also worthy to note that no one else but Jesus could have made this assertion. No one else could have said that with authority and without blaspheming. No one would have dared to say this if it were not exactly so.
Jesus fulfills his roles as priest, sacrifice, and prophet.
Sadly, some 600 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection, Mohammed claimed that Jesus had not really died on the cross.
Mohammed had the perspective that the Christians had developed a scripture, the New Testament, to revise and update the Hebrew scripture. He also so that the Jews had developed the Talmud to accomplish the same thing, but from the Jewish perspective. In that, he gave himself the license to update the New Testament and the Talmud, thus cancelling out both of those.
(See Jaroslav Pelikan, Whose Bible Is It?)
The Mormans came along to update the New Testament with the Book of Morman, “another” testament of Jesus Christ, they claim.And, Louis Farakkan, a Muslim, comes along and said a few years ago that he was the update to Jesus and Mohammed.
And, so it goes. But, to me, only Jesus makes sense. He said HE was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He applied to Himself the holiest word in Judaism to Himself, I AM THAT I AM.
A very important question and some interesting answers. Once again, the scripture is so compact and dense in meaning, that we have to have help, like from Scott Hahn, to explain the levels of meaning.
After saying “it is finished” Jesus died on the cross. The work of salvation had been accomplished. It is also worthy to note that no one else but Jesus could have made this assertion. No one else could have said that with authority and without blaspheming. No one would have dared to say this if it were not exactly so.
Jesus fulfills his roles as priest, sacrifice, and prophet.
Sadly, some 600 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection, Mohammed claimed that Jesus had not really died on the cross.
Mohammed had the perspective that the Christians had developed a scripture, the New Testament, to revise and update the Hebrew scripture. He also so that the Jews had developed the Talmud to accomplish the same thing, but from the Jewish perspective. In that, he gave himself the license to update the New Testament and the Talmud, thus cancelling out both of those.
(See Jaroslav Pelikan, Whose Bible Is It?)
The Mormans came along to update the New Testament with the Book of Morman, “another” testament of Jesus Christ, they claim.And, Louis Farakkan, a Muslim, comes along and said a few years ago that he was the update to Jesus and Mohammed.
And, so it goes. But, to me, only Jesus makes sense. He said HE was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He applied to Himself the holiest word in Judaism to Himself, I AM THAT I AM.
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mike182d
Guest
Truer words were never spoken
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ChristFollower
Guest
Once again, the scripture is so compact and dense in meaning, that we have to have help, like from Scott Hahn, to explain the levels of meaning.
I don’t need Scott Hahn to understand what Jesus meant by “It is finished” - how about the fulfillment of scripture/prophecy - the defeat of sin on our behalf - it is finished indeed.
We are not saved by anything that we do, but what he did - it is finished - submit, repent and be joyous.
- Huh?
I don’t need Scott Hahn to understand what Jesus meant by “It is finished” - how about the fulfillment of scripture/prophecy - the defeat of sin on our behalf - it is finished indeed.
We are not saved by anything that we do, but what he did - it is finished - submit, repent and be joyous.
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Ignatius
Guest
Clearly your interpretation is in error. I know because the Holy Spirit revealed the correct interpretation to me.
Of course I am being facetious. What is wrong with the above statements? Why cannot I be my own source for interpreting the Holy Scripture? If each christian takes this approach where would it ultimately lead? Think about it.
Your brother in Christ.
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Brad
Guest
Correct. Nobody else who has been considered sane has made this claim.
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Brad
Guest
ChristFollower said:
You may not need Scott Hahn, but you do need the Church.
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Fidelis
Guest
ChristFollower said:
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john_ennis
Guest
ChristFollower said:
Whoa. You just said “not by anything we do,” then you say submit and repent.
“It is finished!” Submit and repent? I don’t have to!
Peace.
John
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john_ennis
Guest
john ennis:
Peace.
John
But perhaps I’m missing something, then? Just as (using Scott Hahn’s example) I’d be missing something if I disappeared after my wedding, then when my wife finally tracked me down, I told her, “But Honey, we said our vows; it is finished!”
Peace.
John
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NotWorthy
Guest
ChristFollower said:
So you understand the original Passover feast, where there are four parts to the Passover, each part ending in a drink of wine. During the last part, Jesus and the Apostles sang the Little Hallel (one of the psalms) and instead of drinking again from the cup, they immediately went to the garden. This is something that has puzzled Jewish Scholars for centuries, for this act never completed the Passover, something any knowledgable Jew, like Jesus, would know. Instead, Jesus said, “I will not again drink from the cup, until the day I am in Paradise (paraphrasing)”.
Notice in (I think) Mathew’s or Mark’s Gospel, Jesus turns down the Myrh offered while carrying the cross, after noticing that there was wine mixed in. In John’s Gospel, Jesus’ linen is seamless (the Passover lambs must be unblemished), and Jesus dies at 3:00pm, the time the Passover lambs were sacrificed.
Then, only after drinking the wine from the Hyssop Branch (Used in the Original Passover to spread the blood of the slaughtered lambs over the doorposts of the families who were to be spared the death of their first born sons), Jesus, having just completed the Passover Feast, dies.
We do need scholars like Scott Hahn to interpret this. Not because he’s special, but because we have lost our Jewish Roots. This is something the early Christians would have understood, due to their existing ties with the Jews (they often shared the Synagogues for their Liturgy), but it is something you and I have lost.
Unless the Holy Spirit showed you this already, I’m not sure that you are getting everything John is trying to convey.
Good Luck, my friend.
NotWorthy
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Ignatius
Guest
What if I said “Clearly your interpretation is in error. I know because the Holy Spirit revealed the correct interpretation to me.”
What is wrong with the above statements? Why cannot I be my own source for interpreting the Holy Scripture? If each christian takes this approach, you see where it would ultimately lead. Think about it.
Your brother in Christ.
M
mercygate
Guest
ChristFollower said:
*What, *exactly, is it that is finished? The act by which Christ purchased our redemption is finished.
But the salvation of the world cannot be finished before the end of the – after all, are not souls required to have faith to be saved? Can they have faith if they have not yet been born?
The redemption is “finished” but salvation is an ongoing work of God. On the Cross, Christ redeemed me before I was born. But I am irrevocably saved only when I breathe my last breath and fall into his waiting arms.
Why else would Paul counsel us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling?”
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scylla
Guest
The idea of purgatory really doesn’t take away from the sacrifice of Jesus, in this way. People in Purgatory are saved, it is not a second chance or something we do. This is something God does to us.
Nothing unclean will enter heaven, does everyone who die, die completely perfect? This is how I see purgatory, God cleaning us up so we can enter heaven.
God Bless
Scylla
Nothing unclean will enter heaven, does everyone who die, die completely perfect? This is how I see purgatory, God cleaning us up so we can enter heaven.
God Bless
Scylla
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PhilNeri
Guest
ChristFollower said:
Ya gotta love it when people make these sweeping statements without anything to back them up and then run away. It is also funny to see how fast everyone jumps on it and completely destroys the agument. Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with the thread, but it amuses me to see this happen.
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Ric
Guest
You bet’ch!
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john_ennis
Guest
If that’s what it means, then it also cancels out the idea of ANY suffering–on earth or after death.
Conclusion: saved souls don’t suffer during their lives; they don’t have to, because “It is finished.”
Peace.
John
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