its alright

[Montie_Claunch]

hey guys, I was wondering if ya’ll could help me with a little sumthing. (good god that was too country). Anyhow my inquiry is over the proposition…(thats better) that if salvation exists outside the Catholic Church (which Protestants universally hold to) then it would be irrelvant to debate or convert seeing that it would have little effect on ones eligablitly for salvation, hence makeing it hard for me to exangilize. What would you dear people suggest I write to these people? Thanks and God bless.

 

[Montie_Claunch]

And a course of action on the course the whole mentality and reasoning that fit around such an attitude.

 

[forthright]

Just because it’s possible, doesn’t make it probable. An individual non-Catholic (or Catholic, for that matter) may respond to God’s graces and receive heaven, but what are they telling others? If they are teaching others “once saved, always saved,” then they are putting people’s souls in jeopardy. Unity in faith, and therefore the conversion of Protestants to Catholicism, would make the evangelization of non-Christians so much easier. We should not let others teach error and cause division and just pass it off saying, “that’s OK, 'cause at least they’re Christian.”

 

[Sherlock]

Here’s an analogy: all of us are traveling through a difficult, hostile wilderness on our way to our common, ultimate destination. We have been given a map—divine revelation. On this map are marked the main road, and along the road are many places where we can stock up on supplies—grace via the sacraments.

Our separated brethren and non-Christians have pieces of this map, though they don’t possess the whole. Some have a more complete picture of the map than others; unfortunately most don’t have the parts of the map showing the stockpiles of grace.

You are your brother’s keeper, and you must be concerned that he reach the destination: the Mapmaker has made that pretty darn clear. Your brother might get there, but the off-road traveling is going to be rocky and difficult. He might not make it—the less he has of the map, the tougher it is going to be to get there. He may wander off and perish in the wilderness. It is YOUR responsibility to share the parts of the map with him that he lacks. If he rejects them, then at least you have fulfilled your obligation. You also have the responsibility to try and bring back to the path those who possess the whole map, but, for whatever reason, have chosen to throw it away and wander off the road.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Nice post Mr. Sherlock:thumbsup:

Montie,

One thing that we often overlook is this simple question: Do you want to know the Truth?

Regardless of our own personal points of view, or the chances for our salvation, shouldn’t we seek the Truth for the sake of The Truth?

You might want to check out C.S. Lewis’s "Man or Rabbit" which another forum member (itsjustdave) has on his excellent website: itsjustdave1988.blogspot.com/2005/09/man-or-rabbit-by-cs-lewis.html

What do you think?
God Bless,
VC

 

[shannin]

Montie Claunch:

hey guys, I was wondering if ya’ll could help me with a little sumthing. (good god that was too country). Anyhow my inquiry is over the proposition…(thats better) that if salvation exists outside the Catholic Church (which Protestants universally hold to)

then it would be irrelvant to debate or convert seeing that it would have little effect on ones eligablitly for salvation, hence makeing it hard for me to exangilize. What would you dear people suggest I write to these people? Thanks and God bless.

The Catholic Church has the only sure way to salvation because we have the forgiveness of sins through the sacrament of penance. I’m **not **saying that only Catholics will be saved. I am saying that we all sin and there’s no way to go to Heaven with mortal sin on our souls. Let’s face it, there are some sins that we enjoy and are not really sorry for. That’s where an imperfect comfession comes in. We confess these sins and vow to try to sin no more. The sacrament of penance gives us grace and strength to stop sinning.

Another important reason to evangilize is because of the beauty of the CC. There’s so much misunderstanding and so many misconceptions about the Church and it’s our duty to be “soldiers for the Church” an explain our faith. If Protestants really understood the Church, they would all be Catholic.

The Catholic Church is awesome and Protestants don’t know what they are missing.

 

[NonDenom]

Here’s an analogy: all of us are traveling through a difficult, hostile wilderness on our way to our common, ultimate destination. We have been given a map—divine revelation. On this map are marked the main road, and along the road are many places where we can stock up on supplies—grace via the sacraments.

Our separated brethren and non-Christians have pieces of this map, though they don’t possess the whole. Some have a more complete picture of the map than others; unfortunately most don’t have the parts of the map showing the stockpiles of grace.

You are your brother’s keeper, and you must be concerned that he reach the destination: the Mapmaker has made that pretty darn clear. Your brother might get there, but the off-road traveling is going to be rocky and difficult. He might not make it—the less he has of the map, the tougher it is going to be to get there. He may wander off and perish in the wilderness. It is YOUR responsibility to share the parts of the map with him that he lacks. If he rejects them, then at least you have fulfilled your obligation. You also have the responsibility to try and bring back to the path those who possess the whole map, but, for whatever reason, have chosen to throw it away and wander off the road.

Hey Sherlock
I like your analogy, but there are a few problems with it. I’m assuming that the map you are refuring to is the Bible. If one were to follow the map(Bible) along their way you would be right in saying that they would get home safely. The Catholic map however has added in at different time’s the traditions of some early map fathers which has caused the travelers to wonder off the road and not focus on the words of the Mapmaker. if we could just get them to focus on the map, I know they would discover the path home.
Thanks.

 

[Reepicheep]

We Catholics believe there is a Purgatory.
Protestants don’t.
We therefore pray for our families in Purgatory.
Protestants don’t, because they don’t believe there’s any need to.
Bring a Protestant into the Church, and he’ll begin praying for the souls of his family, to free them from Purgatory.

My conclusion: We should try to convert Protestants, so that they’ll spend less time in Purgatory.

 

[forthright]

NonDenom:

Hey Sherlock
I like your analogy, but there are a few problems with it. I’m assuming that the map you are refuring to is the Bible. If one were to follow the map(Bible) along their way you would be right in saying that they would get home safely. The Catholic map however has added in at different time’s the traditions of some early map fathers which has caused the travelers to wonder off the road and not focus on the words of the Mapmaker. if we could just get them to focus on the map, I know they would discover the path home.
Thanks.

Sherlock’s analogy is closer than you think. (By the way, good job, Sherlock:thumbsup: ) The Catholic map (so to speak) has everything the Mapmaker put into it. I hope I don’t ruin Sherlock’s analogy, but here is a slight modification to put things in perspective. . .

Picture an intermediate step between ourselves and the mapmaker. After all, you didn’t get the Bible straight from God, did you? There was an intermediate step as the prophets and apostles wrote the Bible. In our expanded analogy, we don’t receive the map directly from the Mapmaker. Instead we receive it from His representatives. When we were given the map, the representative gave instruction on how to use the map. They told what the different symbols mean and what the different colors mean and what the different figures mean. Our separated brothers have decided to disregard what the representatives taught us regarding how to follow the map. They have taken the map and decided for themselves what the different symbols mean. In many cases, they have said that symbols for supplies (grace via sacraments) don’t mean anything and it is a waste of time to go out of their way to reach them. In other cases they have said that symbols for danger (contraception, divorce, etc.) have no meaning or that they are even beneficial, and they don’t try to avoid these dangerous spots. How much better off would they be if they listened to the words of the representatives and did not just read the map from the Mapmaker? How much better would Protestants be if they listened to Apostolic Tradition and did not just read the Bible?

 

[VociMike]

Salvation also exists outside the bible, but don’t they find the bible profitable in their Christian lives? Don’t they desire to know more of God, and to align themselves more with His will? Do they find the bible a surpurfluous burden since they’re already saved anyway?

If they reject the Catholic Church on those grounds, they should reject the bible as well. At least, they should reject most of it – they can keep a book or two.

 

[Sherlock]

NonDenom:

Hey Sherlock
I like your analogy, but there are a few problems with it. I’m assuming that the map you are refuring to is the Bible. If one were to follow the map(Bible) along their way you would be right in saying that they would get home safely. The Catholic map however has added in at different time’s the traditions of some early map fathers which has caused the travelers to wonder off the road and not focus on the words of the Mapmaker. if we could just get them to focus on the map, I know they would discover the path home.
Thanks.

No, your assumption is incorrect: I am not speaking of the Bible alone (which has already led many astray into conflicting “truths” and leads to relativism). I am speaking of the fullness of Truth that the Catholic Church possesses, as preserved in Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium.

 

[dal11]

To me it’s an easy analogy. Plain and simple. The farther you get away from the Catholic Church the harder it is to get to heaven.

 

[thistle]

There are people who sincerely try to do what is right but have no opportunity to learn about Christ. They are said to have an implicit baptism of desire, and the Church teaches that they can be saved.
Of course it would be hard to argue Protestants fall into this group because they already know about Christ.

 

[Sherlock]

forthright:

Sherlock’s analogy is closer than you think. (By the way, good job, Sherlock:thumbsup: ) The Catholic map (so to speak) has everything the Mapmaker put into it. I hope I don’t ruin Sherlock’s analogy, but here is a slight modification to put things in perspective. . .

Picture an intermediate step between ourselves and the mapmaker. After all, you didn’t get the Bible straight from God, did you? There was an intermediate step as the prophets and apostles wrote the Bible. In our expanded analogy, we don’t receive the map directly from the Mapmaker. Instead we receive it from His representatives. When we were given the map, the representative gave instruction on how to use the map. They told what the different symbols mean and what the different colors mean and what the different figures mean. Our separated brothers have decided to disregard what the representatives taught us regarding how to follow the map. They have taken the map and decided for themselves what the different symbols mean. In many cases, they have said that symbols for supplies (grace via sacraments) don’t mean anything and it is a waste of time to go out of their way to reach them. In other cases they have said that symbols for danger (contraception, divorce, etc.) have no meaning or that they are even beneficial, and they don’t try to avoid these dangerous spots. How much better off would they be if they listened to the words of the representatives and did not just read the map from the Mapmaker? How much better would Protestants be if they listened to Apostolic Tradition and did not just read the Bible?

I like your additional modification and illumination—thanks!

 

[AquinasXVI]

Sherlock and Forthright:

Stupendous job on the analogy. I really like that one. If I may, I have this image along the same lines.

Imagine a great plain with a gigantic mountain on it. The great plain is surrounded by huge walls and gates that have fountains upon the entrance. Within it are millions of people each one owning crosses of different sizes and shapes. The way in which each person handles the cross vary: dragging, carrying, pushing, burning, stepping on it, etc. Upon the plain there’s massive confusion and a great din for all of the people are going in so many directions and fights even break out.

Upon the base of the mountain many are carrying the cross over their back trying to climb. Many climbers are on the way up. Strewn all over the sides of the mountain are houses that emit light and many of the uphill cross carriers get rest in between stops there. The top of the mountain is covered in clouds so no one can really see the peak.

Outside the walls there are around 30,000 small hills. The people on these hills are doing many things some are studying, some are singing and dancing, others are mezmerized by the speaker on top of it, etc.

Back on the great plain, many bloodied and unhappy resign their cross against the wall and walk out the gates to join the celebration that they see on the hills. Those on the hills seem so much happier than the massive confusion and suffereing on the plain.

From the hills, many have noticed the great mountain and admired the beauty of it so they descend their hill sometimes with great rebuke from their hillmates. They go anyhow and walk towards the great wall and enter the gates by the sprinkling of the water from the fountain…when they got there they are handed a cross, they accept it and start heading for the mountain, but to get there they have to traverse through the millions of people that are wandering about miserably. Somehow at great lenght they arrive at the base of the mountain and start ascending. Many of the people on the plain see them and start joining their upward movement.

The few that are almost at the peak see through the fog, there they see Jesus Christ waiting. He comes over to help them get over the top and embraces and says to each one “Come rest here with me.”

This image is by no means a complete analogy of our earthly reality regarding our personal journey and that of Christendom. But it helps me put in a visual fashion the dynamics of the current situation. For what its worth, I’m sharing it with you.

in XT.