It's Impossible For Humans to Be Moral

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Is it impossible for humans to be moral without God or some sort of higher power? Do they need an incentive of some sort however small? Is it impossible for humans to develop any sort of moral standards in order to develop a society of some sort at all without some sort of higher power guiding them?
 
Starwynd:

Yes, impossible.

This is why societal intitutions require the guidance of the Catholic Church, a religious intitution, God’s true Church.

The ideal is that leaders seek guidance and are instructed by the messenger of the Holy Spirit, the Pontif. 2000 years ago God instructed every person in the world to become Catholic has His son was. So if His wish were carried out, it would be impossible to not choose a candidate of any nation without electing a Catholic. This would ensure by devotion allegiance of any person to the Church, and he would automatically take his guidance from it. It would be the norm.

What we see now is a real mess. People think other religions are the right one, worse, they think they can choose from a roster of religions as if they were choosing a club. The reality is that since then, there is only one Church recognized by God.

Nations ignore the Holy Spirit’s instruction on capital punishment and other issues, and so the list of failures and mercy-less examples of humans committing atrocities to others will continue.

AndyF
 
Is it impossible for humans to be moral without God or some sort of higher power? Do they need an incentive of some sort however small? Is it impossible for humans to develop any sort of moral standards in order to develop a society of some sort at all without some sort of higher power guiding them?
No. We are sinners by nature and it’s the nature of our flesh to sin, not to do what is right.

That’s why we must be born again and receive a new nature.

Sprinkling water on a baby’s head won’t do it. Eating a piece of bread won’t do it. Belonging to a religious organization won’t do it.

You must be born again.
 
Starwynd:

Yes, impossible.

This is why societal intitutions require the guidance of the Catholic Church, a religious intitution, God’s true Church.

The ideal is that leaders seek guidance and are instructed by the messenger of the Holy Spirit, the Pontif. 2000 years ago God instructed every person in the world to become Catholic has His son was. So if His wish were carried out, it would be impossible to not choose a candidate of any nation without electing a Catholic. This would ensure by devotion allegiance of any person to the Church, and he would automatically take his guidance from it. It would be the norm.

What we see now is a real mess. People think other religions are the right one, worse, they think they can choose from a roster of religions as if they were choosing a club. The reality is that since then, there is only one Church recognized by God.

Nations ignore the Holy Spirit’s instruction on capital punishment and other issues, and so the list of failures and mercy-less examples of humans committing atrocities to others will continue.

AndyF
I sure hope that the other Catholics will enlighten you how narrow-minded and absurd your view is.
 
No. We are sinners by nature and it’s the nature of our flesh to sin, not to do what is right.

That’s why we must be born again and receive a new nature.

Sprinkling water on a baby’s head won’t do it. Eating a piece of bread won’t do it. Belonging to a religious organization won’t do it.

You must be born again.
I agree with you JoeBlow, but you have a very distorted understanding of the sacraments. But that is an issue for another thread. 😉
 
I sure hope that the other Catholics will enlighten you how narrow-minded and absurd your view is.
Actually, I think he is representing an historical reality. This is the kind of thinking that created the Holy Roman Empire, and eventually fostered the Protestant Reformation in Europe.
 
No. We are sinners by nature and it’s the nature of our flesh to sin, not to do what is right.
This is not correct. Our true nature is to be sinless, as Adam and Eve were created. Their sin disordered ours nature forcing us to battle against the disorder all of our lives.
That’s why we must be born again and receive a new nature.
This is what happens in Baptism
Sprinkling water on a baby’s head won’t do it. Eating a piece of bread won’t do it. Belonging to a religious organization won’t do it.

You must be born again.
The problem with this is that Baptism and the Eucharist are not just the outward signs. They are also actually what they symbolize.
Sprinkling water on a baby’s head won’t do it. Eating a piece of bread won’t do it. Belonging to a religious organization won’t do it.

You must be born again.
Amen
 
Is it impossible for humans to be moral without God or some sort of higher power? Do they need an incentive of some sort however small? Is it impossible for humans to develop any sort of moral standards in order to develop a society of some sort at all without some sort of higher power guiding them?
There wouldn’t be such a thing as morals in the first place if there was no God, so yes it’s impossible.

If you mean whether someone can have morals without believing in God, yes they can to a degree because all of us naturally have a moral compass due to being created by God.

However, athiests who claim they have morals without religion almost certainly only have them in the first place because they’ve been raised in a religiously moral society, but do not wish to give credit to it.
 
This is not correct. Our true nature is to be sinless, as Adam and Eve were created.
OK. You go on and believe that. I’ll believe the Bible.

Sorry, but Romans 5-7 is very clear that we have a sin nature.
This is what happens in Baptism
No, getting wet is what happens at baptism.
The problem with this is that Baptism and the Eucharist are not just the outward signs. They are also actually what they symbolize.
Actually, the Bible describes them as being purely symbolic. Sprinking water on a baby’s head and eating a piece of bread never saved, and cannot save, anybody.
 
I think a Christian theist would answer that it is impossible to be virtuous in the sense our actions are just and good in the sight of God without grace. To do and choose the good in Christian philosophy and theology usually required the infused grace of God to help us choose the right ends and make the right choices. Even so, other philosophers believed it is possible for humans to make the right moral choices without any supernatural help, from Aristotle onwards.
 
I think a Christian theist would answer that it is impossible to be virtuous in the sense our actions are just and good in the sight of God without grace. To do and choose the good in Christian philosophy and theology usually required the infused grace of God to help us choose the right ends and make the right choices. Even so, other philosophers believed it is possible for humans to make the right moral choices without any supernatural help, from Aristotle onwards.
:amen:

Nice summary. I would remind the Catholics here that we have a natural law tradition which says that the moral code is written on the heart of all humanity. Without Christ it cannot be followed perfectly, and yet it is binding on everyone. The idea that man is abjectly evil and incapable of morality - or altogether amoral by nature - is protestant and modern. It is not Augustine either.
 
A “belief in God” covers a lot of ground. One cannot, naturally, asume that such a belief makes one a Christian and, as we have seen to a sickening degree, belief in God - including Christianity, is no bar to imorality. Many people have been killed in the name of one god or another.

I’d also like to mention the Deist POV - of which I am just learning - Deists are morally guided by ethics and conscience rather than by scripture.
 
Is it impossible for humans to be moral without God or some sort of higher power? Do they need an incentive of some sort however small? Is it impossible for humans to develop any sort of moral standards in order to develop a society of some sort at all without some sort of higher power guiding them?
Humans have evolved as social creatures, living in community. Millions of years of biological development have consolidated a kind of ‘moral grammar’ into human physiology, in much the same way humans are hard-wired with a “language grammar” built-in – lots of different specializations and variations can be built on top of this moral grammar, just like a variety of different languages can be built on our innate linguistic grammar, but the core remains a pervasive, intrinsic feature of being human.

Theists might suppose that evolution was guided by God, etc., creating an indirect responsibility on God’s part for this moral grammar of man. That’s not a falsifiable idea, so there’s not much more to say about it, but as a direct product of evolution, humans are wired with a built in sense for the building blocks of moral frameworks – a sense of fairness, empathy, justice, and reciprocity, for example.

These aren’t biological frivolities, but important features of human psychology that provide “survival and trival” benefits to man. Tribes composed of purely self-interested individuals aren’t even tribes, but even if they “stick together” geographically, without the faculties of social conscience and social contracts, the tribe goes extinct. Tribes that deploy reciprocity, social contracts and altruism end up competing much more effective for survival resources, and fare better over time than “pure brutes”.

Every human alive today is the tail end of a very long chain of successful survivors, humans and pre-humans who figured out how to operate in their challenging environments. Morality and ethics are one of the ‘tools’ – every bit as important as the spear and the plowshare – man has developed as a strategy for succeeding in his environment, to flourish and reproduce. Groups of humans who develop and deploy moral frameworks outperform groups of humans who don’t, which is why the pure brute, if he ever existed, is just so many fossilized bones, buried under thousands and millions of years of sediment.

-Touchstone
 
There wouldn’t be such a thing as morals in the first place if there was no God, so yes it’s impossible.
Even as Christian, I never understood this statement. I don’t hear this often from Catholics, but do hear it a lot from Calvinists – that whole van Til/Bahnsen/Frame/Presuppositional Apologetics thing, doncha know.

If there is no God, why should that preclude the development of moral frameworks and ethics?
If you mean whether someone can have morals without believing in God, yes they can to a degree because all of us naturally have a moral compass due to being created by God.
However, athiests who claim they have morals without religion almost certainly only have them in the first place because they’ve been raised in a religiously moral society, but do not wish to give credit to it.
I have co-workers who were raised in Japan. To hear them tell it, Japan is an overwhelmingly atheist society, and has been for a long time. Even in the Samurai days and the martial Emperor period, their “gods” were glorified humans, nothing supernatural about them. And yet, we see the same kinds of ‘moral grammar’ in Japanese society that we see in humans everywhere. One might suppose that God is transcendentally necessary to reify the moral sense – no way to falsify that idea, even in principle, so I will just let it lay there – but I don’t think one can survey the history of human cultures and claim that unbelievers’ morals are “stolen concepts” from the religious culture the unbelievers live in.

-Touchstone
 
I would like to recommend How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas Wood and Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark.

I want to especially concentrate on the Christian view of charity, because charity is the highest of all morals. As Paul wrote in 1Cor 13, without charity we are nothing, and all good we do is nothing.

Charity was virtually non-existent before the start of the Christian culture. In pre-Christian Roman culture, it was non-existent. It is a common routine to abandon babies so that they starve to death. There were no human rights for slaves. There were to charity organizations for the poor. People enjoyed gladiator shows for entertainment.

Other cultures were not much better. The Hindu culture believed innthe caste system. The poor were being punished for their previous lives. Bad karma. So why construct charity organization to alleviate their suffering.

In Buddhism, all is God. Suffering is a mere illusion. So since suffering is an illusion, why show compassion for those who only appear to suffer?

Atheism is more modern, but it has been the worst. Over 100 million people have been killed in the 20th century by atheistic regimes - Nazi Germany, Communist China, Soviet Union, Kmer Rouge.

True, as we are entering into a post-Christian society we still see some remnants of compassion and morals. But this is only because people hold onto the Christian memory while rejecting its foundations. Frederic Neitzchie criticized his fellow atheist for not taking atheism to its logical conclusion. Since, to him, there is no God, who is to say that love is better than hate. To him, all that mattered was the will to power. Along with Darwinianism, only the fit survives. The best thing for the unfit is that the unfit die quickly. The more that our species only consists of the fit, the quicker we will evolve into the superman species. So for the good of our evolutionary destiny, we should encurage the unfit to die off. Darwinsts see no place for charity.

It is only in Christianity that we see compassion for the less fortunate. We do not see atheistic or Buddhist counterparts of Mother Theresa.
 
I would like to recommend How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas Wood and Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark.

I want to especially concentrate on the Christian view of charity, because charity is the highest of all morals. As Paul wrote in 1Cor 13, without charity we are nothing, and all good we do is nothing.

Charity was virtually non-existent before the start of the Christian culture. In pre-Christian Roman culture, it was non-existent. It is a common routine to abandon babies so that they starve to death. There were no human rights for slaves. There were to charity organizations for the poor. People enjoyed gladiator shows for entertainment.
The Spartans are infamous now for their brutal disposition toward deformed, weak or otherwise undesirable babies, leaving them outside to die of exposure. But if we look at Stoicism, a school of thought that arose several centuries before Christ, we see altruistic charity as a core value, promoting the value of doing good for one’s fellow man without expecting anything in return. And of course, charity and alms for the poor were a cultural institution in Jewish societies long before the time of Christ, institutionalizing charity through the tithe.

Other cultures were not much better. The Hindu culture believed innthe caste system. The poor were being punished for their previous lives. Bad karma. So why construct charity organization to alleviate their suffering.
That’s a very naïve view of Hinduism. Here’s a verse a Hindu friend offered up once in a conversation where we Christians (I was a Christian at the time) were propounding our “invention” of charity:
Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice. Whatever charity you give, whatever austerity you practice, do it as an offering to Me.
Gita:9.27
Hindu scriptures, many of which predate even the oldest Hebrew texts, never mind Christian ones, coalesce around these ideals: self-control, detachment, purity, truth, charity, nonviolence and deepest compassion toward all creatures.

And here’s a bit from the Tamil Thirukkural that predates the consolidation of Catholic institutional charity:
  1. Duty is not for reward
    Does the world recompense the rain-cloud?
  1. The worthy work and earn wealth
    In order to help others.
  1. How rare to find in heaven or earth
    A joy to excel beneficence!
  1. He only lives who is kin to all creation;
    Deem the rest dead.
  1. The wealth of a wise philanthropist
    Is a village pool ever full.
  1. The wealth of liberal man
    Is a village tree fruit-laden.
  1. The wealth of the large-hearted
    Is an unfailing medicine tree.
-Thirukural
In Buddhism, all is God. Suffering is a mere illusion. So since suffering is an illusion, why show compassion for those who only appear to suffer?
Atheism is more modern, but it has been the worst. Over 100 million people have been killed in the 20th century by atheistic regimes - Nazi Germany, Communist China, Soviet Union, Kmer Rouge.
Atheism is the lack of belief in God or gods, or, more strongly, the belief that there exists no God or gods. Atheism may well fail to provide a moral argument against mass killing, but it’s a category error to expect such – atheism is not a moral framework; moral frameworks get built on top of atheism, and they can be quite diverse. What you are suggesting here is similar to saying that “vegetarianism” killed 6 million innocent people in the 20th century at the hands of vegetarian regimes… Hitler’s vegetarianism also did not provide a moral imperative against his evil goals and plans.

Theism, on the other hand, does have points where it entails mass killing. Moses and the demand from God to exterminate the Midianites in Numbers 31, for example, or calls in the Qur’an and Hadith to “kill the infidel”, or one who abandons Islam. That isn’t the whole of theism by any means, but those are cases which are conspicuously missing, necessarily, from atheism. Since there’s no god to take your cues from, your killing desires are you own.
True, as we are entering into a post-Christian society we still see some remnants of compassion and morals. But this is only because people hold onto the Christian memory while rejecting its foundations. Frederic Neitzchie criticized his fellow atheist for not taking atheism to its logical conclusion. Since, to him, there is no God, who is to say that love is better than hate. To him, all that mattered was the will to power. Along with Darwinianism, only the fit survives. The best thing for the unfit is that the unfit die quickly.
This is a naïve view of evolutionary biology. Social contracts and commitments to reciprocal and even altruistic behaviors are not liabilities in many cases, but tremendous advantages. Groups that share food with the weak and the sick outcompete groups built on naïve self-interest, as the aid given leads to recovery and subsequent contributions by the recovered to the resources, security and survival of the group. Love is an evolutionary advantage over hate in a great many instances.
The more that our species only consists of the fit, the quicker we will evolve into the superman species. So for the good of our evolutionary destiny, we should encurage the unfit to die off. Darwinsts see no place for charity.
This is very crude caricature of the dynamics of evolution. Charity and altruism are currently active and vigroous topics of research in evolution. Here’s an article published last year about studies and research that show altruism in chimpanzees, for example. Here’s an earlier article along the same lines.
It is only in Christianity that we see compassion for the less fortunate. We do not see atheistic or Buddhist counterparts of Mother Theresa.
The evidence shows otherwise. Catholicism definitely deserves singular credit for the sustained levels of energy and scope of the charitable enterprises it enables. It has played an important, civilization-shaping role in that regard. But here you are simply being parochial, and over-reaching badly. Humans (and even other non-human species) have innate dispositions to compassion, charity and altruism. Again, you might suppose God is the reason for that, but in any case, it’s a pervasive feature of human psychology, not something invented by Christianity. Catholicism deserves admiration and gratitude for the good charity it has enabled and provided over millenia now, but it kind of hollows out the righteousness of even that charity if it comes with claims that it invented the principle and the practice.

-Touchstone
 
But if we look at Stoicism, a school of thought that arose several centuries before Christ, we see altruistic charity as a core value, promoting the value of doing good for one’s fellow man without expecting anything in return.
The Stoic will give to charity, but without compassion.

The sage will console those who weep, but without weeping with them; he will succor the shipwrecked, give hospitality to the proscribed, and alms to the poor,…restore the son to the mother’s tears, save the captive from the arena, and even bury the criminal; but in all his mind and his countenance will be alike untroubled. He will feel no pity. He will succor, he will do good, for he is born to assist his fellows, to labor for the welfare of mankind, and to offer each one his part…. His countenance and his soul will betray no emotion as he looks upon the withered legs, the tattered rags, the bent and emaciated frame of the beggar. But he will help those who are worthy, and, like the gods, his leaning will be towards the wretched…. It is only diseased eyes that grow moist in beholding tears in other eyes….

By Seneca, quoted at lewrockwell.com/woods/woods41.html
And of course, charity and alms for the poor were a cultural institution in Jewish societies long before the time of Christ, institutionalizing charity through the tithe.
I did not mention anything against Judaism. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, so it understandable that Judaism would care for the poor. Jews and Christian worship the same God.

More later…
 
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