James 2:14-26

[MaxBecher]

Hi, I was recently talking to some Protestant friends about justification. I have not been studying apologetics long, and the whole discusion told me one thing: I have much to learn. I showed them James 2:14-21, where it very clearly states that we are not justified by faith alone, like they believe. But they gave me a curve I hadn’t heard before. They said that James is speaking of justification before men, not God. I didn’t know what to say to that. He is speaking of justification before God, right? How can I show them that?

Thanks!

Max

 

[Fidelis]

There is absolutely no indication within the text that it is talking about justification before men. James is talking about faith that leads to - or away from - salvation (verse 14). Even the example James uses about Abraham is based on Abrahams standing before God (vv21-24) not men.

To reduce this passage to simply one dealing with human relations is to engage in faulty eisegesis (reading into Scripture)based on what they want to avoid about the plain meaning of the words – that we will be judged on what we do or don’t do (Romans 2:6-8).

 

[Chesster]

James 1:27 says, “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this . . .”

St. James is not talking about “justification before men”, the only thing he is concerned about is justification before God.

 

[dumspirospero]

Where is the scriptural support for such claim? Also…we have no need to be justified before men…the only justification that we should be concerned with is before God.

MaxBecher:

Hi, I was recently talking to some Protestant friends about justification. I have not been studying apologetics long, and the whole discusion told me one thing: I have much to learn. I showed them James 2:14-21, where it very clearly states that we are not justified by faith alone, like they believe. But they gave me a curve I hadn’t heard before. They said that James is speaking of justification before men, not God. I didn’t know what to say to that. He is speaking of justification before God, right? How can I show them that?

Thanks!

Max

 

[Shibboleth]

I don’t know what Protestants you were talking to but that is interesting.

Here is what the Protestants like myself have to say about James.

It is an Epistle of Straw. – Just kidding.

James talks about the fact that even Daemons believe – this tells us that he is stalking about something other than True Faith. Daemons do not have faith because they do not have God’s Grace. Faith is a gift of God’s Grace and not due to ourselves.

So the comments on belief in James need to be taken differently.

In reference to faith without works is dead. Well, a protestant should take this comment very seriously. Faith is an active and living thing, as such it will go good works – the good tree will inevitably bear good fruit – if you are not bearing good fruit then you need to take a good look at your faith.

In reference to the justification of Abraham and others by their works one only needs to look to Hebrews to see that these works were done by faith, through faith, and because of their faith.

 

[rlg94086]

Shibboleth:

I don’t know what Protestants you were talking to but that is interesting.

Here is what the Protestants like myself have to say about James.

It is an Epistle of Straw. – Just kidding.

James talks about the fact that even Daemons believe – this tells us that he is stalking about something other than True Faith. Daemons do not have faith because they do not have God’s Grace. Faith is a gift of God’s Grace and not due to ourselves.

CCC 153 …Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit who moves the heart and converts it to God…"

So the comments on belief in James need to be taken differently.

In reference to faith without works is dead. Well, a protestant should take this comment very seriously. Faith is an active and living thing, as such it will go good works – the good tree will inevitably bear good fruit – if you are not bearing good fruit then you need to take a good look at your faith.

CCC 162…To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our Faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted the faith of the Church.

---

In reference to the justification of Abraham and others by their works one only needs to look to Hebrews to see that these works were done by faith, through faith, and because of their faith.

CCC 146 Abraham thus fulfills the definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”: “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Because he was “strong in his faith,” Abraham became the “father of all who believe.” (also see CCC 145, 147 and 165)

So, we pretty much agree…except I would change protestant to Christian to be more inclusive . I think the Bible is pretty clear in its teaching that in addition to “faith without works is dead”, the apostles could easily have said “works without faith is dead”.

God Bless,

Robert

 

[jeffreedy789]

but you didn’t address 2:24 - ‘so we see that we are justified by what we do and not by faith alone’. how do you respond to that bit?

 

[Erich]

Fidelis:

we will be judged on what we do or don’t do (Romans 2:6-8).

Matthew 25 is pretty explicit, as well:

41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[Shibboleth]

jeffreedy789:

but you didn’t address 2:24 - ‘so we see that we are justified by what we do and not by faith alone’. how do you respond to that bit?

All this is covered in the Joint Doctrine of Justification - do a web search.

 

[rlg94086]

Shibboleth:

All this is covered in the Joint Doctrine of Justification - do a web search.

Jeff,

Try this link to a James Aken article in This Rock:

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp

It has a pretty good breakdown on what the Joint Doctrine says and doesn’t say. It also gives a little blurb about how it affects apologetics…

God Bless,

Robert.

 

[Fidelis]

Shibboleth:

In reference to faith without works is dead. Well, a protestant should take this comment very seriously. Faith is an active and living thing, as such it will go good works – the good tree will inevitably bear good fruit – if you are not bearing good fruit then you need to take a good look at your faith.

I often hear non-Catholic Christians say this, but what does it mean? Take a good look at your faith for what, exactly? And, more to the point, if your faith is not producing good works, then what? Can that faith save you (James 2:14)?

In reference to the justification of Abraham and others by their works one only needs to look to Hebrews to see that these works were done by faith, through faith, and because of their faith.

Absolutely, but the faith did have to result in works. Abraham’s just having faith and then just sitting on it would have availed him nothing. In both Genesis 12, 15, 17 and 22 (as pointed out in James 2 and Hebrews 11), God blesses Abraham because of his obedience (actions), not for his faith by itself. Same for the litany of saints in Hebrews 11 – all of these people, as a result of their faith, obeyed God, taking action as a result of their faith in him.

 

[Shibboleth]

Fidelis:

I often hear non-Catholic Christians say this, but what does it mean? Take a good look at your faith for what, exactly? And, more to the point, if your faith is not producing good works, then what? Can that faith save you (James 2:14)?

Absolutely, but the faith did have to result in works. Abraham’s just having faith and then just sitting on it would have availed him nothing. In both Genesis 12, 15, 17 and 22 (as pointed out in James 2 and Hebrews 11), God blesses Abraham because of his obedience (actions), not for his faith by itself. Same for the litany of saints in Hebrews 11 – all of these people, as a result of their faith, obeyed God, taking action as a result of their faith in him.

It means exactly what you are saying, faith will produce good works. If one is not producing good works than one most likely does not have faith.

 

[jeffreedy789]

‘All this is covered in the Joint Doctrine of Justification - do a web search.’

i could do a web search without coming to this board. i don’t want to read what they’ve said about this, i want to know what you guys think. any takers?

 

[MaxBecher]

There is absolutely no indication within the text that it is talking about justification before men. James is talking about faith that leads to - or away from - salvation (verse 14). Even the example James uses about Abraham is based on Abrahams standing before God (vv21-24) not men.

To reduce this passage to simply one dealing with human relations is to engage in faulty eisegesis (reading into Scripture)based on what they want to avoid about the plain meaning of the words – that we will be judged on what we do or don’t do (Romans 2:6-8).

James 1:27 says, “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this . . .”

St. James is not talking about “justification before men”, the only thing he is concerned about is justification before God.

Where is the scriptural support for such claim? Also…we have no need to be justified before men…the only justification that we should be concerned with is before God.

Thanks folks, that helps very much. I had no idea I would get so many quick answers!

Max

 

[Chesster]

Shibboleth:

It means exactly what you are saying, faith will produce good works. If one is not producing good works than one most likely does not have faith.

St. James doesn’t say that faith produces good works, he says that faith cooperates with works.

 

[rlg94086]

‘All this is covered in the Joint Doctrine of Justification - do a web search.’

i could do a web search without coming to this board. i don’t want to read what they’ve said about this, i want to know what you guys think. any takers?

Okay. I’ll comment on this:

“When Catholics affirm the ‘meritorious’ character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace” (JD 37-38).

IOW…we are justified by faith, not good works. This matches the Catechism. In the attempt to converse with MichaelP on other threads (he doesn’t want to “debate”, so he is reluctant to explain his views…methinks he is working on a book or lesson plan on Catholicism. ), I found that Catholics and Protestants are a lot closer to agreeing than we think.

Justification: unmerited gift of grace. The difference is we believe you can “lose” it when you choose to separate yourself from God through mortal sin.

Works: Can’t be separated from Faith/Grace. Protestants believe in good works, but they say that someone with True Faith will do good works and leave it at that. MichaelP posted that the consequence of sin is a reduction of your rewards in heaven, so I’m assuming he believes good works would increase them? The mistake is in believing that your good works are what get you there. I think this is actually common ground for a lot of Protestants and the Church. I’m still learning about the varying rewards in heaven. Apparently, the Catholic Church believes this too, but I’m not clear on the teaching.

Purgatory, Indulgences (as a consequence of faithful works), Church Authority: Now here’s where we really differ! Protestants think we are bean-counting our works. I haven’t seen any evidence of this. Do any of you keep a spreadsheet with a works column and a sin column?

God Bless,

Robert.

 

[Fidelis]

Shibboleth:

It means exactly what you are saying, faith will produce good works. If one is not producing good works than one most likely does not have faith.

That isn’t what James is saying. First, he does not not talk about having NO faith, he is talking about a DEAD faith, a faith that is there, but is not resulting in good works. So it is possible have faith in God, and still fail to obey him. As an example, James points to the demons, who have a type of faith, but for them it only results in fear because of their wickedness.

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? **Shall faith be able to save him? **

15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, **what shall it profit? **

17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

**19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?**

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

**22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? **

23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

**24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? **
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

**26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. **

 

[Shibboleth]

Once again daemons do not have true faith because faith is a gift from God and part of his Grace. Daemons do not have God’s grace so they cannot have faith.

I have no problem with saying that faith is dead. When we are baptized we are given the gift of faith, if we reject Jesus and faith it will cease to do good works. We can still do good things still but they are not good works outside of God’s Grace and will. Either way God does not take away his gift of faith, we have simply rejected it so it is dead within us.

The minute we cease to reject God it will live again and bear good fruit again.

The tree bears the fruit the fruit does not bear the tree.

Once again the Joint Doctrine of Justification explains this fact.

If you want to argue that Faith Alone is poor biblical language than I agree as it has caused many needless and deleterious fights.

I am afraid this is one of those instances where if a Catholic was trying to explain that they do not believe in works salvation the protestant would keep giving reasons why works salvation is incorrect – to put things on the other foot.

 

[Fidelis]

Shibboleth:

Once again daemons do not have true faith because faith is a gift from God and part of his Grace. Daemons do not have God’s grace so they cannot have faith.

Demons do have faith --James says it very clearly. But you are correct in saying it is apart from God’s grace. Just as works can be done outside or with God’s grace, as you note below, the demons have a type of faith, though it will not save them because it comes from hate and fear, rather than love and grace.

I have no problem with saying that faith is dead. When we are baptized we are given the gift of faith, if we reject Jesus and faith it will cease to do good works. We can still do good things still but they are not good works outside of God’s Grace and will. Either way God does not take away his gift of faith, we have simply rejected it so it is dead within us.

The minute we cease to reject God it will live again and bear good fruit again.

The tree bears the fruit the fruit does not bear the tree.

Once again the Joint Doctrine of Justification explains this fact.

True, but the bearing of fruit determines whether the tree lives or dies:

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 **If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned./**QUOTE]

If you want to argue that Faith Alone is poor biblical language than I agree as it has caused many needless and deleterious fights.

I am afraid this is one of those instances where if a Catholic was trying to explain that they do not believe in works salvation the protestant would keep giving reasons why works salvation is incorrect – to put things on the other foot.

Agreed!

 

[Shibboleth]

Fidelis:

Demons do have faith --James says it very clearly. But you are correct in saying it is apart from God’s grace. Just as works can be done outside or with God’s grace, as you note below, the demons have a type of faith, though it will not save them because it comes from hate and fear, rather than love and grace.

True, but the bearing of fruit determines whether the tree lives or dies:

John 15:1-6

1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 **If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned./**QUOTE]

Once again we do not differ, by saying that it is a type of faith or a faith that does not save. True faith to Protestants is saving – some Protestants call this in James ‘intellectual assent’ this is problematic it is a little more than that but it still falls short of Faith as understood by Protestants.

One person might say, “God is one and God is real” but fail to do good works. He might even believe that God is one and God is real but he has rejected the work of Jesus and the Gospel and has ‘dead faith’ it will not produce Good Works at this point.

Agreed!