James "brother" of Jesus?

[Catholic_Dude]

The second question refers to Matthew and Mark where the crowd is recorded shouting the names of the four men WE believe are his brothers. If Catholic Dude’s hypothesis is correct, and I have yet to encounter a Catholic apologist that did not say they were step-brothers or direct cousins as Catholic Dude appears to be contending, why would the crowd yell out the names of second cousins and not the older male fathers of these men? I hope that clarifies the question.

About the time in Matthew and Mark where explicit names are mentioned (the first two being James and Joses), both of those gospels clearly state a “other Mary”, “Mary mother of James and Joses” at the foot of the cross. Thus there is evidence they were not literal brothers. Why werent they shouting names of those fathers? The best answer that comes to mind is that those fathers were not around (eg maybe dead) or that people like James and Joses hung around Jesus a lot more so that they were more readily identified. If you saw a group of relatives grow up together you wouldnt make a habit of delineating every detains of every single relation every time you made reference to the group, neighbors would know who you were talking about.

Also, while on the topic, please clarify and support your contention they travelled together “most of the time” with Mary. John 2 seems to indicate she was already there, outside of the birth and death narratives, I am very curious about your contention.
ThanksBrian

I dont know where this came from or where it finds support. What do you mean “she was already there”?

 

[BrianH]

About the time in Matthew and Mark where explicit names are mentioned (the first two being James and Joses), both of those gospels clearly state a “other Mary”, “Mary mother of James and Joses” at the foot of the cross. Thus there is evidence they were not literal brothers.

Both gospels never have the two together, that is what is clear

Why werent they shouting names of those fathers? The best answer that comes to mind is that those fathers were not around (eg maybe dead) or that people like James and Joses hung around Jesus a lot more so that they were more readily identified.

So…the crowd yells, there is Jesus, the son of the carpenter, his mother is Mary, his four distant relatives are James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Just curious when do you see adelphos and adelphi used together to denote distant relatives?

If you saw a group of relatives grow up together you wouldnt make a habit of delineating every detains of every single relation every time you made reference to the group, neighbors would know who you were talking about.

Oh that is much more likely than listing the names of his brothers

I dont know where this came from or where it finds support. What do you mean “she was already there”?

It says she was there and then Jesus and his disciples show up, there is nothing to indicate she ever travelled with his disciples pre-resurrection.

 

[guanophore]

The second question refers to Matthew and Mark where the crowd is recorded shouting the names of the four men WE believe are his brothers. If Catholic Dude’s hypothesis is correct, and I have yet to encounter a Catholic apologist that did not say they were step-brothers or direct cousins as Catholic Dude appears to be contending, why would the crowd yell out the names of second cousins and not the older male fathers of these men? I hope that clarifies the question.

Thanks
Brian

I guess the part I don’t understand is, why do you think there are other people alive? what if Joseph, and the whole generation of parents had passed way? Why would the crowd yell out the names of people not still living? Why would any parents name two of their children by the same name? (two "Mary’s) born of the same parents? Even in the first century this was not practiced.

Matt 28:1-2
8:1 Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Mag’dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.

We know from other passages that this “other Mary” is the mother of James and Joses:

Mark 15:40-41

40 There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo’me, 41 who, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered to him; and also many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem."

Mark 15:47
47 Mary Mag’dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid."

If Joses were his uterine brother, why would it not say “mary his mother”?

Luke 24:10-11
10 Now it was Mary Mag’dalene and Jo-an’na and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles; 11 but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them."

In one gospel, this mary is called the mother of Joses, and in the other, the mother of james. We know she is the mother of both.

John 19:25
“standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene.”

JShe is also the wife of Clopas. Since Clopas is her husband, how could she be Jesus’ mother?

Acts 1:14
14 All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers."

Here Mary is called jesus’ mother. If she were not the mother of all of them, why does it not say “their mother”?

Since james and Joses are described to be brothers, they must be very near relatives.

Mark 6:3
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?"

The exact nature of the relationship may be lost to us, but clearly, the woman who gave birth to " James and Joses and Judas and Simon" is Mary the the wife of Clopas (Mark 6:3)

 

[BrianH]

I guess the part I don’t understand is, why do you think there are other people alive? what if Joseph, and the whole generation of parents had passed way? Why would the crowd yell out the names of people not still living? Why would any parents name two of their children by the same name? (two "Mary’s) born of the same parents? Even in the first century this was not practiced.

You are mixing Marys, lets take a look at what you say:

Matt 28:1-2
8:1 Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Mag’dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.

We know from other passages that this “other Mary” is the mother of James and Joses:

No we do not. That is conjecture. Am I to believe, according to your theory, that Mark and Matthew omit the mother of Christ at the time of his death?

Mark 15:40-41

40 There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo’me, 41 who, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered to him; and also many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem."

Mark 15:47
47 Mary Mag’dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid."

If Joses were his uterine brother, why would it not say “mary his mother”?

Take that up with the gospel writers.

Luke 24:10-11
10 Now it was Mary Mag’dalene and Jo-an’na and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles; 11 but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them."

In one gospel, this mary is called the mother of Joses, and in the other, the mother of james. We know she is the mother of both.

You “know”. You have not established that at all.

John 19:25
“standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene.”

JShe is also the wife of Clopas. Since Clopas is her husband, how could she be Jesus’ mother?

You never find the mother of Christ mentioned with the Mary who claim is their mother because they are one and the same.

Acts 1:14
14 All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers."

Here Mary is called jesus’ mother. If she were not the mother of all of them, why does it not say “their mother”?

Because their relationship to Mary is not the focus of the verse, it is all about Christ.

Since james and Joses are described to be brothers, they must be very near relatives.

Yes, brothers are near relatives

Mark 6:3
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?"

The exact nature of the relationship may be lost to us, but clearly, the woman who gave birth to " James and Joses and Judas and Simon" is Mary the the wife of Clopas (Mark 6:3)

No way. The plain meaning and most logical reading is brothers. You have proved absolutely nothing. Conjecture built upon conjecture. You do not like her being referred to as the mother of James or Joses but it is clear that the gospel writers made no errors and Mary never appears with this woman, unless one takes into account assumptions from other verses.
Let us be clear as well. Catholic Sacred Tradition is hopelessly confused as well. Initially the clear consensus was brothers, then we get step brothers and finally cousins.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Both gospels never have the two together, that is what is clear

What two together? James and Joses?
55"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? -Mat 13

3Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.-Mk 6

56Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.-Mat 27

40Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.-Mk 15
It is no stretch to say the Mother of James and Joses (Joseph) was the same mother of the James and Joses mentioned earlier. I dont think it is a mistake that only Mat and Mk mention these names explicitly and yet also mention their mother at the foot of the cross.

So…the crowd yells, there is Jesus, the son of the carpenter, his mother is Mary, his four distant relatives are James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Just curious when do you see adelphos and adelphi used together to denote distant relatives?

What is objectionable about them calling out the names of boys who they grew up seeing around Jesus? As for adelphos used to denote a distant relative, clearly Jn 19:25 says Mary mother of Jesus and “her sister Mary” and it is highly improbable two children of the same parents with the same name.

Oh that is much more likely than listing the names of his brothers

Are you getting desperate here or something? What is improbable about my comments? So far you have been brushing off any probable case we have made.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You are mixing Marys, lets take a look at what you say:

No we do not. That is conjecture. Am I to believe, according to your theory, that Mark and Matthew omit the mother of Christ at the time of his death?

Yes, it is likely they kept that information hush to protect Her privacy. There is no indication Mary mother of James and Joses, aka “the other Mary” was the mother of Jesus, the evidence is strongly against it. You propose a totally absurd position where we are to believe Mark and Matthew dont mention the name of Jesus along with James and Joses. And you charge us with conjecture?

Take that up with the gospel writers.

LOL, Mr Conjecture.

You “know”. You have not established that at all.

What?
40Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome. -Mk 15

47Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid. -Mk 15

1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.-Mk 16
The case should be clear for anyone without a major bias. It is clear it is the same woman in all three verses, she is first called mother “of James and Joses” then “of Joses” and then “of James”. FUNNY, not once is she called Mother of Jesus!
At your rate you would have to deny the Mary mentioned in v47 and v1 were the same person.

You never find the mother of Christ mentioned with the Mary who claim is their mother because they are one and the same.

What? That passages lists THREE women named Mary:
his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene.
Your overarching bias has you refusing to admit the “sister Mary” is the same mother of James and Joses and that she is distinct from Mary mother of Jesus. I question if there are even any protestant scholars who make the claims you make.

Because their relationship to Mary is not the focus of the verse, it is all about Christ.

That verse doesnt help your claims at all, regardless who the focus was. The fact is She is never said to be the mother of Jesus and others at the same time.
It is very interesting the context of Acts 1:14:
13When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. 15In those days Peter stood up among the believers [greek: brothers]c] (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled…
The group was 120 people. If we were to do the math we would realize that “brothers” is the only way to make up 120 people after the Apostles and women are counted. But that would make easily over 50 brothers and thus cleary cant be of the same mother…as John Martignoni says “Mary would have not been a perpetual virgin, but rather have been in perpetual labor”.

No way. The plain meaning and most logical reading is brothers. You have proved absolutely nothing. Conjecture built upon conjecture. You do not like her being referred to as the mother of James or Joses but it is clear that the gospel writers made no errors and Mary never appears with this woman, unless one takes into account assumptions from other verses.
Let us be clear as well. Catholic Sacred Tradition is hopelessly confused as well. Initially the clear consensus was brothers, then we get step brothers and finally cousins.

NO, taking the EVIDENCE in mind says James and Joses were sons of another Mary. You make the absurd claim that out of 6 times being listed at the cross she is never called mother of Jesus, yet she is…scripture does NOT operate like that. You have brushed off all the evidence in favor of your bias, which also turns out to result in absurd conclusions…you simply cant stand that we made a good case.

 

[BrianH]

Catholicdude
Once again, I am referring to Mary appearing with the mother of James and Joses.
The verse does not say her sister was named mary. It is referring to four different people:
Jhn 19:25 ¶ Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Catholicdude
Once again, I am referring to Mary appearing with the mother of James and Joses.
The verse does not say her sister was named mary. It is referring to four different people:
Jhn 19:25 ¶ Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

IF you are right, that there are four women listed here instead of three (depending on how one interprets the comma), how does that hurt my position? If anything it hurts your position because it shows the Mat and Mk lists didnt list all the women.
The mother of James and Joses is either the “fourth” woman who is “mother’s sister” or else she is “Mary Cleophas”.

 

[BrianH]

IF you are right, that there are four women listed here instead of three (depending on how one interprets the comma), how does that hurt my position? If anything it hurts your position because it shows the Mat and Mk lists didnt list all the women.
The mother of James and Joses is either the “fourth” woman who is “mother’s sister” or else she is “Mary Cleophas”.

No, she is the mother of five male children and at least two girls.
Matthew and Mark did not omit the mother of Christ because she is the mother of a large family.

 

[guanophore]

Let us be clear as well. Catholic Sacred Tradition is hopelessly confused as well. Initially the clear consensus was brothers, then we get step brothers and finally cousins.

John 19:25
“standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene.”

Do I understand you to say that Mary, the wife of Clopas mentioned here is NOT the same as Mary his mother’s sister (the "other) Mary?

I reckon this is the heart of the matter. When you reject the Sacred Tradition, and consider it hopeless, after that it really doesn 't matter at all how you interpret the scripture.

Mary was present at the death of her son, at the foot of the cross, along with Mary Magelene, and Mary the wife of Clopas, mother of James and Joses.

Mary did not go to the garden because she believed what her Son told her in advance, that he would rise on the third day. She already knew there would not be a body in the grave.

 

[Tom]

Have I just missed a response to Pax? He asked at least twice, for a Scirptural reference to the brothers and sisters being referred to as children of Mary. Are there any? Brothers of Jesus could have been step brothers, no? If impossible, where’s the Scriptural proof? So if they could be other than uterine brothers what’s the problem?

Now that you have had ample proof from scripture that Jesus did not have uterine siblings, I would like you to answer a question not unlike your own.
Can you show us from scripture even one verse that names a person other than Jesus as the son or daughter of Mary?
I’ll save you the effort…there aren’t any.
If my post sounds sarcastic, please know that it is not intended to be.

BrianH,
There is not a single passage of scripture that refers to anyone other than Jesus as the son or daughter of Mary the wife of Joseph. Can you explain this based on your beliefs and scripture?

So please, where’s the Scriptural proof that Mary, not Joseph, but specifically Mary, had other children?

 

[Tom]

Four months, still no Scriptural proof that these brothers and sisters are children of the womb of Mary? Interesting. No Scripture that says any person other than Jesus is a child of Mary? How odd. Scripture does identify Jesus as the child of Mary, but no other person?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Four months, still no Scriptural proof that these brothers and sisters are children of the womb of Mary? Interesting. No Scripture that says any person other than Jesus is a child of Mary? How odd. Scripture does identify Jesus as the child of Mary, but no other person?

Give 'em more time, but after a month dont bother.