Jehovah's Witness and the Trinity help

[Nelka]

Jehovah’s Witnesses always throw this verse at me to state that Jesus is not God.

John 5:19 To this Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, by himself the Son can do nothing; he can do only what he sees the Father doing: and whatever the Father does the Son does too.

How is the very best way to show them that they are wrong with this particular verse?

Thanks.

 

[thistle]

Jehovah’s Witnesses always throw this verse at me to state that Jesus is not God.

John 5:19 To this Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, by himself the Son can do nothing; he can do only what he sees the Father doing: and whatever the Father does the Son does too.

How is the very best way to show them that they are wrong with this particular verse?

Thanks.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 19. The Son cannot do any thing of himself,[5] but what he seeth the Father do. In like manner, (ver. 30.) Christ says, I can do nothing of myself. As I hear, so I judge. Again (Chap. viii. 28.) I do nothing of myself; but as the Father hath taught me, I speak these things. All these, and the like expressions, may be expounded, with Maldonatus and Petavius, (lib. ii. de Trin. chap. 4.) of Christ, as man. But the ancient Fathers commonly allowed them to be understood of Christ as God, and as the true Son of God proceeding from him from all eternity; as when it is said, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, it is true, because the eternal Son is not of himself, but always proceeds from the Father. 2. Because the works of all the three Persons, by which all things are produced and preserved, are inseparable. 3. When it is said, that the Son doth nothing, but what he seeth the Father doing: that he heareth, as the Father hath taught him, or shewed to him: these expressions bear not the same sense as when they are applied to men, or to an inferior or a scholar, who learns of his master, and follows him; but here, says St. Augustine, to see, to hear, to be taught by the Father, is no more than to proceed from him, to do and produce by the same action, all that the Father doth and produceth. This is the general interpretation of the ancient Fathers: St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Chrysostom, St. Cyril, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine. The words immediately following, confirm this exposition, when it is said: For what things soever he (the Father) doth, these also in like manner the Son doth, i.e. the very same things by an unity of nature, of will, and of action: nor could these words be true, unless the Son was the same true God with the Father. (Witham) — This must be understood, that he cannot do any thing contrary to the will of the Father. He does not say, “The Son does nothing of himself, but the Son can do nothing of himself, in order to shew their likeness and perfect equality.” For by saying this, he does not betray any want of power in the Son; but, on the contrary, shews his great power. For when we say that God cannot sin, we do not esteem it a want of power; so when the Son says he cannot do any thing of himself, his meaning is, that he cannot do any thing contrary to the will of the Father; which certainly is a great perfection. (St. Chrysostom, hom. xxxvii. in Joan.)

Also see this:

cuf.org/FileDownloads/jehovah.pdf

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jehovah’s Witnesses always throw this verse at me to state that Jesus is not God.

John 5:19 To this Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, by himself the Son can do nothing; he can do only what he sees the Father doing: and whatever the Father does the Son does too.

How is the very best way to show them that they are wrong with this particular verse?

Thanks.

The verse itself says that Jesus and the Father are one God.

Also,

So Jesus said (to them), “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that** I AM**, and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me. John 8:28

And

Are you greater than our father Abraham,* who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?” Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word.g Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it* and was glad.h So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them,i “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be,** I AM**.” So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area. John 8: 53-59

When Jesus said I AM, the Jews automatically knew he was proclaiming Himself to be God. For they new what God had told Moses;

“But,” said Moses to God, “if I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what do I tell them?” 14God replied to Moses: I am who I am.* Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites:** I AM has sent me to you.** Exodus 3: 13-14

Then ask your JW friend, what was Jesus convicted of by the Sanhedrin in the Temple ?

Was it not blaspheme, i.e. making himself God ?

Don’t expect to convince them however. I learned long ago, it’s best not to get into long debates with JW’s. They have access 24/7 to their own teachers to call on for help with arguing with Catholics and they can overwhelm you if your not well versed in Scripture. .

Jim

 

[Robyn_p]

Jehovah’s Witnesses always throw this verse at me to state that Jesus is not God.

John 5:19 To this Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, by himself the Son can do nothing; he can do only what he sees the Father doing: and whatever the Father does the Son does too.

How is the very best way to show them that they are wrong with this particular verse?

Thanks.

This verse actually is very Trinitarian. The Church teaches that no member of the Trinity acts independently of the other.

It is true that the Son can do nothing on His own. Why? Because if He could, if there was something the Son could do without the Father, He wouldn’t be perfectly one with the Father. We would have two separate beings. Two separate Gods.

 

[Robyn_p]

Also, I would ask them if they agree it would be a sin to honor a creature the same way we honor God. Then, have them read a couple more verses after the one they quoted to you:

19 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

Jesus said all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. No creature, no matter how holy or good, deserves that. So either Jesus is asking us all to commit gross idolatry, or He’s showing that because He is one with the Father, He is God.

 

[OraLabora]

Why would anyone want to waste time arguing with JWs? They’re indoctrinated, they’re not interested in dialogue.

 

[Nelka]

Why would anyone want to waste time arguing with JWs? They’re indoctrinated, they’re not interested in dialogue.

I understand however I would like to plant a seed if I could, I also need the practise.

 

[eschator83]

Great post and some good replies–I also let them visit and very moderately give them “challenges,” generally on their sola scriptura inclination. I ask them to explain difficult passages. They are pretty well coached on the points they try to make, but I find they have little familiarity with much of the Bible, nor with Church history, which often they seem to like to hear stories about. I figure, at least when they’re with me they aren’t twisting the mind of some innocent.
I resent how they falsely attack other churches, that they won’t vote or hold any public office, and they do very little charity except within JW. After I get over that, almost all seem to be pretty good kids. We went to the wedding of one couple–it was sad how Spartan it was.

 

[AndrewRuki]

Peace be with you Brother/sister Nelka.

This is a favourite of mine against the JW.

Revelations
1:8 : “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

1:17 - 18 : When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

The JW will say that this is spoken by Jehovah God the Farther.

Million Dollar question : When did God the Father Die?

The one who says “I am the Alpha and the Omega” and “I am the First and the Last” is the same person. He is Jesus Christ.

Hope I have explained this clearly.

Dominus vobiscum.

Andrew