Jehovah's Witnesses

[mangy_dog]

All this hullabaloo about “where does the comma go?” in Jesus’s statement to the Good Thief on the Cross.

It’s simple.
The expression Jesus used over and over and over and over again in the New Testament was a common Jewish expression of a solemn statement, rendered variously as,
“Truly I say unto you,”
“Verily, Verily, I say unto thee,”
“I solemnly tell you,”
but NEVER:
“Truly I tell you today, yada yada yada”

Thus, it is properly rendered,
Truly I tell you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.

Obfuscation over and done with. End of story.

Yer wasting your time…JW will only succeed in testing your patience. They are anti-christian.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

All this hullabaloo about “where does the comma go?” in Jesus’s statement to the Good Thief on the Cross.

It’s simple.
The expression Jesus used over and over and over and over again in the New Testament was a common Jewish expression of a solemn statement, rendered variously as,
“Truly I say unto you,”
“Verily, Verily, I say unto thee,”
“I solemnly tell you,”
but NEVER:
“Truly I tell you today, yada yada yada”

Thus, it is properly rendered,
Truly I tell you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.

Obfuscation over and done with. End of story.

I must have missed this, what exactly is the big deal here with this comma? What is the doctrinal dispute?

Thanks.

 

[BibleSteve]

I must have missed this, what exactly is the big deal here with this comma? What is the doctrinal dispute?

Thanks.

In the New World Translation, Luke 23:43 reads: “And he said to him: ‘Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.’” Jesus said this in answer to the following request of one of the evildoers hung beside him: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.”—Luke 23:42.

However, other Bible translations punctuate Luke 23:43 differently. For instance, the King James Version says: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

The position of the comma changes the meaning of the verse. In the King James Version the comma’s being placed before the word “today” makes it appear that Jesus told the evildoer that he would be in Paradise that very same day. This would mean that Jesus, as well as the evildoer, would be in Paradise on that very day that he was speaking.

In the original Greek language of the Christian Greek Scriptures, how is this sentence punctuated? It is not punctuated at all. Why not? Because the writers of the Greek Scriptures did not use punctuation at that time. The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Volume 23, page 16, states: “No attempt to punctuate is apparent in the earlier manuscripts and inscriptions of the Greeks.” It was not until the 9th century C.E. that punctuation came into general use.

Where, then, should the comma be put? What did Jesus himself say? Did he believe he was going to inherit his kingdom and be in some kind of Paradise immediately after he died, in that same twenty-four-hour period? No.

Other translators have also seen the difficulty involving the comma in this scripture. The Riverside New Testament avoided the problem by not putting in a comma at all, rendering it: “I tell you truly to-day you will be with me in Paradise.” On the other hand, The New Testament by George M. Lamsa renders it: “Truly I say to you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” Also The Emphasised Bible by Joseph B. Rotherham reads: “Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise.”

So what Jesus was saying was that when God’s kingdom by Christ was established at a time then future, and when Paradise was restored to the earth, this evildoer could expect to be resurrected to have an opportunity for eternal life. He would be included among those mentioned at Acts 24:15, where it states: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” As an “unrighteous” person he would be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn of God’s purposes and requirements. If obedient to God and his King-Son, he would live forever on that Paradise earth, qualified to be among those of whom Psalm 37:29 foretold: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

So what Jesus was saying was that when God’s kingdom by Christ was established at a time then future, and when Paradise was restored to the earth, this evildoer could expect to be resurrected to have an opportunity for eternal life. [1] He would be included among those mentioned at Acts 24:15, where it states: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” [2] As an “unrighteous” person he would be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn of God’s purposes and requirements. [3] If obedient to God and his King-Son, he would live forever on that Paradise earth, qualified to be among those of whom Psalm 37:29 foretold: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”[4]

I dont see why it would refer to that same “24 hour period” considering He didnt rise till the third day. The most logical answer I can see at this point is that Jesus meant once He was resurrected and Ascended into Heaven would the good thief be with him. Jesus after He died went to “Abraham’s bosom” (Lk 16:22) and freed the OT saints and brought them to Heaven when He Ascended. Thus the thief would have been part of that crowd.

[1] I dont know anywhere where the Bible teaches Paradies is going to be restored, I know of many passages that say things are going to burn up however, and I especially dont see any evidence for the thief expecting to be resurrected so that he could have “an opportunity for eternal life”.

[2] Paul says in the very next verse “I strive to keep my conscience clear before God” indicating that what he was just talking about was the Final Judgment and Paul wanted to die a righteous man in God’s eyes.

[3] I have never heard such a thing (except from the LDS) nor do I believe it is Biblical.

[4] The people in the OT didnt have as full of a picture of Heaven as we do from the NT revelation. All such comments actually foreshadow Heaven (Heb 11:13-16). The people in the OT were more focused on earthly treasures not realizing the REAL “promise land” was Heaven itself and “Egypt” was really sinful man’s bondage until the Savior arrived.

 

[Edson]

Please download JW.mp3 and/or anything else from this site.
Click on the green arrow to download.

mediamax.com/ssd_spec

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Please download JW.mp3 and/or anything else from this site.
Click on the green arrow to download.

mediamax.com/ssd_spec

Are these Catholic apologetics resources?

 

[Edson]

Are these Catholic apologetics resources?

YES

 

[Jaypeeto4]

The Paradise to which Jesus was referring in speaking to the Good Thief, has always been understood by Christians, from the very dawn of Christianity, to refer to the place of the abode of the departed SOULS of the RIGHTEOUS dead. This is how the word Paradise was commonly used in 1st century Judaism, along with the related expression “the bosom of Abraham.”
JWs and 7th Day Adventists, well-meaning though they are,
do not understand these facts.

It does not, in this context, refer to the Highest Heaven, nor to a paradise established on earth after the second coming.

And the Jewish expression Jesus used here (as elsewhere by Jesus),
is “Truly I tell you,…” NOT “Truly I tell you today,…”
There was no such expression in use in Judaism in the first century, and this would be the only place where Jesus used the expression where he added the word “today” before announcing the solemn truth he was about to announce. That is not at all likely.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Gara3987]

However, where I’m getting hung up is mostly on what Catholics believe about the Kingdom of God. A key component to JW eschatology is that we will remain on the earth.

Hopefully, by now you are getting the point. In essence, I am looking for suggestions on how to share the Catholic faith with JWs. I also am looking for a good book that argues point by point against JW publications, specifically “What Does the Bible Really teach” and “Reasoning from the Scriptures.” I am also in need of a good understanding of Catholic eschatology.

God Bless,
buc_fan33

Luke 6:22-23
22 Blessed shall you be when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. 23 Be glad in that day and rejoice; for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For according to these things did their fathers to the prophets.

One Way to look at the Trinity is:
[Gen 1:26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

If you look at it, what do we consist of? A physical Body, a *Spirit, and a **Soul (three in one). A way to also look at it is our Body is physical, everyone can see that. Our Soul could be explained as Human animal Instinct (wanting what whatever it wants whether it is right or wrong {in a lot of cases Lust could be one example of this for those who sleep around knowing it is wrong}), and our Spirit is our intellectual moral Instinct (knowing right from wrong and fighting off temptations {our spirit is closest to God}). At least this is how It was explained to me by some that I hold dear to me, it has really helped my understand better and I hope it helps you as well.

I have sent an a private message to someone else about a book that has really helped me, Tradition and the Church**, **this book I recommend for ever Catholic to read.

Synopsis of Tradition and the Church.
What exactly is Tradition? This is the only book we know on the subject. Published in 1928 by a priest with three doctors’ degrees, this book exposes all aspects of Tradition, so that once a person has read this book, he will never question the nature of Tradition again. Every priest, bishop and cardinal, every seminarian and everyone who considers himself to be an informed Catholic should also read this providential book—which is reappearing at a crucial time in the history of the Church, to help clarify our understanding about the nature of the Deposit of Faith and how we should all revere and cherish the Tradition of the Church!

A web page that I recommend that you take a look at is here, it has a lot of questions that you may want to ask the JWs. The Bible that I recommend is the +Douay-Rheims Bible (Online Version), it is the most precise translation of the ++Latin Vulgate, you may view the history here.

Tradition and the Church is an excellent book, my Dad got it for me and just reading the first chapter give a great amount of information and explanations, So if you want to study up on the Roman Catholic Faith you don’t want to miss this one. It would be nice if they had an online version of it though, that is too bad.

I hope that you find this information useful.

Take Care and God Bless.

[Gen1:2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
**Gen1:7] And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
+An English translation of the Vulgate by Roman Catholic scholars
++The Latin edition of the Bible translated from Hebrew and Greek mainly by St. Jerome at the end of the 4th century; as revised in 1592 it was adopted as the official text for the Roman Catholic Church