JEPD Bible Sources

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I am in the process of taking a graduate course Intro to the Old Testament. Has anyone here take this Intro course and studied about these sources and thought that these biblical scholars were trying to reduce the Scripture to myths, legends, fables, etc. and eliminate that they are the inspired Word of God? Maybe I just don’t get it, however, this is my impression at the moment. Anyone’s experiences with this would be helpful.
 
I am in the process of taking a graduate course Intro to the Old Testament. Has anyone here take this Intro course and studied about these sources and thought that these biblical scholars were trying to reduce the Scripture to myths, legends, fables, etc. and eliminate that they are the inspired Word of God? Maybe I just don’t get it, however, this is my impression at the moment. Anyone’s experiences with this would be helpful.
I’ve no personal experience in this, but I did find this article which might prove useful to you(especially in the book recommended there):

thesacredpage.com/2009/12/jesuit-bible-scholar-on-source.html
 
Has anyone here take this Intro course and studied about these sources and thought that these biblical scholars were trying to reduce the Scripture to myths, legends, fables, etc. and eliminate that they are the inspired Word of God?
The Graf-Wellhausen hypothesis (the JEPD approach) is a default theory acknowledged by most biblical scholars who adopt a redactional or historical-critical methodology. I think there are few scholars other than biblical literalists who would say it is not at least partially correct. Apparently particular linguistic forms do indicate the specific sources in some verses, although the redactional (that is, editing) process might affect the level of such certainties.

Ultimately such things are unprovable. But this doesn’t mean that they are problematic or unorthodox (I note you didn’t say that they are, I’m merely commenting on the implications of such ideas for our faith).

The issues raised by this approach are discussed in a document published in 1994 by the Pontifical Biblical Commission entitled THE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE IN THE CHURCH, which included a preface by then-Cardinal Ratzinger, now our pope.

See ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.htm

This covers the complexities in a clear and interesting fashion. Best wishes.
 
I have studied it. It is tripe. To my mind, though it’s dressed up in more academically acceptible terminology, it’s validity is on par with the Bible Code and the Jesus Seminar for ultimate credibility.

The Tubingen school of “higher criticism” was a humanist endeavor to deconstruct Holy Scripture. In so far as it has been imbibed by the Church, it is quite unhealthy, and leads to the liberal protestant deconstruction of the Church (if you doubt it, just look at the American Episcopals and Lutherans, as well as their European counterparts, and you’ll see just where these humanistic efforts to shred the Holy Scriptures ends up.)

At the risk of being labeled a “Biblical literalist,” I will say that you need to find a better graduate program, that actually believes that the Scriptures are God-breathed, as St. Paul admonished St. Timothy, and as the Fathers of the Church also confessed.

Peace be with you.
I am in the process of taking a graduate course Intro to the Old Testament. Has anyone here take this Intro course and studied about these sources and thought that these biblical scholars were trying to reduce the Scripture to myths, legends, fables, etc. and eliminate that they are the inspired Word of God? Maybe I just don’t get it, however, this is my impression at the moment. Anyone’s experiences with this would be helpful.
 
I’ve watch most every program on Discovery, Science, Naked Archeologists, etc. that deals with biblical archeology.

The program “Naked Archeologist” talked frequently about the JEPD sequence, as a way to date the written record of the OT.

Gabriel Barkay is often on NA and he seems to be one of few archaelogoists willing to put two and two together and come up with the correct answer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Barkay

Unfortuneately, many other programs find and present the scholars who envision the OT as a series of fables told by these “wakadoo” chest pounding storytelling Israelites.

These programs routinely present the archeologists (who for fear of losing their university tenure and possibly denting their “precious” reputations) won’t qualify digs back to their Biblical significance.
 
I am in the process of taking a graduate course Intro to the Old Testament. Has anyone here take this Intro course and studied about these sources and thought that these biblical scholars were trying to reduce the Scripture to myths, legends, fables, etc. and eliminate that they are the inspired Word of God? Maybe I just don’t get it, however, this is my impression at the moment. Anyone’s experiences with this would be helpful.
Scholars are not trying to reduce Scripture to myths, legends, fables, etc. Scholars do not necessarily reject Scripture is the inspired word of God. Some may, I don’t know. I do not know of any Catholic scholar that rejects such while they do teach the commonly accepted view of how, historically, the Scriptures came to be.
 
Thank you all for your comments.

I am having problems with the textbook that was assigned, written by John J. Collins called Introduction to the Hebrew Bible. Is anyone familiar with his writing? In the chapter concerning Exodus, he alludes to the fact that it is doubtful that the exodus of the Israellites ever took place and that the stories in Exodus are just legendary and folkloristic. This book bothers me, especially, since it was assigned by an instructor in a Catholic college. Maybe I don’t know how to look at these things, but if I don’t then figure someone else who won’t ask these questions and will walk away with the idea that the Bible is nothing but just one big myth, etc. with only man as the inspiration, not God.I am wondering why I should be taking this course and reading this book, if this guy is coming from this point of view. I am interested in learning about the Old Testament, but from the point of view that God is the ultimate author, not solely man. Any insight would be really helpful at this point, expecially, if anyone know of this author’s writing.

Thanks,
 
Thank you all for your comments.

I am having problems with the textbook that was assigned, written by John J. Collins called Introduction to the Hebrew Bible. Is anyone familiar with his writing? In the chapter concerning Exodus, he alludes to the fact that it is doubtful that the exodus of the Israelites ever took place and that the stories in Exodus are just legendary and folkloristic. This book bothers me, especially, since it was assigned by an instructor in a Catholic college. Maybe I don’t know how to look at these things, but if I don’t then figure someone else who won’t ask these questions and will walk away with the idea that the Bible is nothing but just one big myth, etc. with only man as the inspiration, not God. I am wondering why I should be taking this course and reading this book, if this guy is coming from this point of view. I am interested in learning about the Old Testament, but from the point of view that God is the ultimate author, not solely man. Any insight would be really helpful at this point, especially, if anyone know of this author’s writing.

Thanks,
Greetings in the LORD!

I’m not familiar with Collins, but I have read Lawrence Boadt’s Reading the Old Testament, and your book sounds similar.

There were a couple of links originally provided on Scott Hahn’s website leading to works which critique the JEDP theory. The first link was to an online book, The Mosaic Origin of the Pentateuchal Codes. Although written some time ago, I think that it is still timely. A more recent critique that Hahn linked to is a lecture on the authorship of the Pentateuch. Slides 65 through 71 of the lecture lay out one of the biggest problems for proponents of the documentary hypothesis.

You can also check out Gary Rendsburg’s lectures on the Book of Genesis where he offers some of his own critiques. The Frederick library has a copy if you’re ever in Frederick. I think his most powerful point against the hypothesis is that there is not a single Babylonian loanword to be found in the whole of Genesis. This is a decisive point because the JEDP theorists hold that the P source and its redactors provide for the final state of the text and that these authors/editors post-date the exile to Babylon. Although Babylonian loanwords could exist in a text that predates the exile due to a shared culture and other influences, it would be extremely unlikely for Babylonian loanwords to be absent from such a lengthy text purportedly to have been redacted and added to after the exile.

Paul gives examples of some events described in Exodus and Numbers in verses 1 through 10 of 1 Corinthians 10, and he concludes this section by saying that “these things happened to them,” and “they were written down for our instruction” (1 Corinthians 10:11). It goes without saying that mythology (if taken in the sense that the thing described is something of a work of fiction) cannot account for this two stage process of (1) events first happening, and (2) these same events subsequently being written down. Only real life works this way.

The Church teaches that the historical narrative of Sacred Scripture “is not mythology, but a true history” (Final Propositions of the Synod of Bishops on the Bible (2008), Proposition 25). For the “Christian faith has its specificity, primarily in that it refers to historical events, or better to a coherent history, which actually took place as history. In this sense, the question about the fact, the reality of the event, is essential to” our faith; consequently, what might be styled as the deeper meaning of salvation history “must not be separated from the facts” ( (2002)Current Doctrinal Relevance of the Catechism of the Catholic Church).

I hope this is helpful for you. Have you been able to make it to St. Alphonsus’?

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
 
Thank you so much for this article. I am in the process of reading it. It is a long article and I tend to read slowly. This article seem to be very well put forth and not the confusing mess that Collins is putting forth. Unfortunately, if I continue in this course, I will have to endure Collins. This is hard, since he contradicts everything, or just about, that we as Catholics and Christians should believe. Again, thanks.
 
Greetings in the LORD!

I’m not familiar with Collins, but I have read Lawrence Boadt’s Reading the Old Testament, and your book sounds similar.

There were a couple of links originally provided on Scott Hahn’s website leading to works which critique the JEDP theory. The first link was to an online book, The Mosaic Origin of the Pentateuchal Codes. Although written some time ago, I think that it is still timely. A more recent critique that Hahn linked to is a lecture on the authorship of the Pentateuch. Slides 65 through 71 of the lecture lay out one of the biggest problems for proponents of the documentary hypothesis.

You can also check out Gary Rendsburg’s lectures on the Book of Genesis where he offers some of his own critiques. The Frederick library has a copy if you’re ever in Frederick. I think his most powerful point against the hypothesis is that there is not a single Babylonian loanword to be found in the whole of Genesis. This is a decisive point because the JEDP theorists hold that the P source and its redactors provide for the final state of the text and that these authors/editors post-date the exile to Babylon. Although Babylonian loanwords could exist in a text that predates the exile due to a shared culture and other influences, it would be extremely unlikely for Babylonian loanwords to be absent from such a lengthy text purportedly to have been redacted and added to after the exile.

Paul gives examples of some events described in Exodus and Numbers in verses 1 through 10 of 1 Corinthians 10, and he concludes this section by saying that “these things happened to them,” and “they were written down for our instruction” (1 Corinthians 10:11). It goes without saying that mythology (if taken in the sense that the thing described is something of a work of fiction) cannot account for this two stage process of (1) events first happening, and (2) these same events subsequently being written down. Only real life works this way.

The Church teaches that the historical narrative of Sacred Scripture “is not mythology, but a true history” (Final Propositions of the Synod of Bishops on the Bible (2008), Proposition 25). For the “Christian faith has its specificity, primarily in that it refers to historical events, or better to a coherent history, which actually took place as history. In this sense, the question about the fact, the reality of the event, is essential to” our faith; consequently, what might be styled as the deeper meaning of salvation history “must not be separated from the facts” (Current Doctrinal Relevance of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2002)).

I hope this is helpful for you. Have you been able to make it to St. Alphonsus’?

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
Hi,

Thanks you also for all your help. I will be reading the sources that you mentioned. I was really looking forward to this course, but now, I really don’t know how I am going to proceed. If I pursue my degree, I have to take it.

I have not been in St. Alphonsus in a very long time. I just don’t go in that direction much. Unfortunately, my time is rather limited and parking is always an issue here in the city. I will have to visit, it is really a very unique and beautiful Church.
 
In spite of disagreement over the conclusions being drawn, one thing you can take away from the course is an appreciation for paying attention to details. 🙂 And it will also provide you an opportunity to familiarize yourself with the ways that others view the sacred text so that you may be able to more effectively proclaim the Gospel in a way that secularists will understand.

Did you know that there is a parking lot for St. Alphonsus? If you drive past the Church with the Church on your left, you can take a right at the next intersection and the lot will be on the left. If you tell the attendant that you are there for St. Alphonsus, parking is free.

Your brother in the Lord,
Pete
 
Thank you all for your comments.

I am having problems with the textbook that was assigned, written by John J. Collins called Introduction to the Hebrew Bible. Is anyone familiar with his writing? In the chapter concerning Exodus, he alludes to the fact that it is doubtful that the exodus of the Israellites ever took place and that the stories in Exodus are just legendary and folkloristic. This book bothers me, especially, since it was assigned by an instructor in a Catholic college. Maybe I don’t know how to look at these things, but if I don’t then figure someone else who won’t ask these questions and will walk away with the idea that the Bible is nothing but just one big myth, etc. with only man as the inspiration, not God.I am wondering why I should be taking this course and reading this book, if this guy is coming from this point of view. I am interested in learning about the Old Testament, but from the point of view that God is the ultimate author, not solely man. Any insight would be really helpful at this point, expecially, if anyone know of this author’s writing.

Thanks,
I’ve read some of his writings. Very helpful and valuable!

Regarding the Exodus stories and account, the point is that some of the recorded accounts may be exaggerated, or embellished, or interpreted upon subsequent reflection, and so on.

That is, we probably should not read these accounts as eyewitness “in the moment” objective descriptions. Exodus was, most likely, written long after the actual events, and so of course included not only the account of what happened, but the insights and reflection that the Spirit led the people to understand about the significance of those events, and God’s actions in their lives.

I would recommend keeping an open attitude to the course. Collins is a widely known and respected scholar. Much can be learned from him.

Hope this helps.
 
I am interested in learning about the Old Testament, but from the point of view that God is the ultimate author, not solely man.
Of course God is the ultimate author. But humans are also involved. I don’t think anything Collins writes or teaches denies this…does it?
 
I’ve no personal experience in this, but I did find this article which might prove useful to you(especially in the book recommended there):

thesacredpage.com/2009/12/jesuit-bible-scholar-on-source.html
Oh!

This reminds me. John Bergsma linked to a paper relevant to this question and provided the following comments:

“One of my favorite papers from the SBL was Joshua Bermann’s comparison of Deut 13 with passages from Late Bronze Age (c. 14th-13th century BC) Hittite literature. (Click on the title of the post to see the full text.) I didn’t know what to expect heading into the session, but Bermann made a really convincing case that Deuteronomy shared strong parallels with these ancient texts. Unfortunately, I’m afraid most scholars of biblical law are not going to know what to do with his data, because the view that Deuteronomy is a seventh-century BC text influenced by Assyrian literature is firmly entrenched in scholarship (and that’s an understatement).”

Here’s the paper that he linked to: CTH 133 and the Hittite Provenance of Deuteronomy 13.

The Sacred Page is a great blog to follow! I love those guys!

In Christ,
Pete
 
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