Jesuits-Pope's SS? 3 Popes?

[CrisDee]

I’m the one whose husband is going ballistic over my decision to convert to Catholicism, so please understand that it is not my intention to insult or incite controversy, I am just trying to get some answers to some of the hateful things my beloved but anti-Catholic husband is saying about the Church.

During one of his recent rants (which are getting more and more frequent), he made a statement about the Jesuits being “the Pope’s SS” (yes, as in like the Nazi SS). He also made a statement about apostolic succession being total BS because during one of the persecutions in the early centuries, the pope fled Rome and then somehow three different people claimed to be pope, so there’s no way there can be apostolic succession.

Does anybody have any clue what he’s talking about??? Remember, he was educated at a very liberal protestant college; and also as a youth he had very radical political leanings, so some of this misinformation is probably the result of half an education or mis-education.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Minerva]

the Jesuits aren’t the pope’s SS - they don’t even listen to the pope anymore!

as for the competing papal claims, I’d ask for a source on that. Otherwise don’t let it sway you. THere was a case of anti-popes in the early renaissance - 14th century I think - but it got straightened out, no doubt thanks to the Holy Spirit.

 

[CrisDee]

Minerva:

the Jesuits aren’t the pope’s SS - they don’t even listen to the pope anymore!QUOTE]

Well that’s what I thought, but I’m too new in Catholic teachings to know.

I don’t know if this is relevant, but I just remembered him mentioning some years ago a book called “Holy Blood Holy Grail”, a “DaVinci Code” type book that was written a number of years ago. It could be that much of his misinformation was taken from this book and others like it - does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[nan]

I’m reading en excellent history of the reformation right now, written by Philip Hughes. It’s titled “A Popular History of the Reformation” and is probably out of print. It is from a former pastor’s personal library and is SOOO easy to follow. The 1st chapter addresses the "3 pope " issue. I would encourage you to try to get your hands on a copy.

 

[hermit]

I recommend all you Jesuit-bashers visit this web site. True the Jesuits have had their ins and outs with Popes over the years, but to compare them to the Nazi SS is contemptible.

www.goethals.org/mission.htm

 

[CrisDee]

hermit:

I recommend all you Jesuit-bashers visit this web site. True the Jesuits have had their ins and outs with Popes over the years, but to compare them to the Nazi SS is contemptible.

Hermit, I’m so sorry but that’s what he said, and the reason I posted it at all was to try to find out what in the world he might be talking about. He has been throwing all sorts of horrible, contemptible venom at me about the Catholic church. His bizzare misconceptions have been most hurtful to me, and I am just trying to understand where he might be coming from.

 

[mtr01]

CrisDee:

Hermit, I’m so sorry but that’s what he said, and the reason I posted it at all was to try to find out what in the world he might be talking about. He has been throwing all sorts of horrible, contemptible venom at me about the Catholic church. His bizzare misconceptions have been most hurtful to me, and I am just trying to understand where he might be coming from.

The Idea of the Jesuits as the Pope’s SS was popularized (if not invented) by Jack Chick in his comic book (yes comic book!!!) Alberto. Chick is widely known as one of the most over-the-top professional anti-catholics out there. His comic book alleges to relate the true exploits of his partner Alberto Rivera, who claims to have been a Jesuit priest in Spain. His “official” charge was allegedly to infiltrated the major Protestant denominations and sabotage them from the inside. Somehow he manages to escape his “spy” occupation and fled here where he struggles to bring the “truth” to light, apparantly with a contract out on his life. It’s all utter nonsense and propaganda put forth by those who hate the Catholic Church for whatever reason, and won’t let facts stop them from trying to destroy it.

As for the three popes business, he’s referring to the Great Western Schism, which was more of an misunderstanding fueled by outside political motives than a real crisis in the church, and lasted only about 40 years. Here’s a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on the subject:

newadvent.org/cathen/13539a.htm

Hope this helps

 

[aridite]

At their foundation, the Jesuits were intensly loyal to the pope personally. This was to counter the excesses of the reformation, so protestants, especially ones with long memories, are likely to view the Jesuits rather harshly.

In Catholic circles, I have heard them described as the Marine Corps of the pope, but whether that is a compliment will depend on what you think of the Marines (and perhaps the pope).

At a pretty late stage of formation (20 years?) some Jesuits at least used to take a special 4th vow of obedince to the pope. I think this still happens, but given the “ins and outs” referred to above, I’m not sure what this really means.

Jesuits had been pretty involved in “Liberation Theology” (Marxism for Catholics) in Latin America in the 70’s and 80’s, (but Rome has pretty well got that under control) and in some areas are still known be pretty liberal. At one point, in the 1700’s the order was surpressed, but managed to survive in Russia; from there it was re-established world-wide.

I know some VERY orthodox Jesuits who are intensly loyal to the pope and the magisterium – but there are goofy one’s too. All Jesuits are very well educated and dedicated men, so they can be a formidible opponent, whatever side they’re on.

There have been anti-popes from time to time throughout the history of the Church. The first was a Hippolytus, a priest of Rome, who opposed the election of Callistus in 217. In the 14-15th centuries there were a number of anti-popes; the matter was finally settled at the Council of Constance in 1417. I know of at least three men who now claim to be pope besides John Paul II, but no one takes them seriously.

Catholic Answers has a series of tracts about anit-Catholic distortions and fabrications. “Anti-Catholic Whopper” confronts some of my favorite lies. It might be well to look at what those who oppose the Church say about her. It might help to temper the shock and offer a response when your husband goes ballistic again.

I will be praying for you. Catholicism has obviously touched a nerve of his, and he may be more hurt and fearful and either you or he realizes.

 

[CrisDee]

Thanks, mtr01, and everybody, for your helpful responses. I am trying my hardest (although not always successfully) NOT to get into apologetics debates with him, but at least it’s helpful to know where his misinformation is coming from.

It’s very difficult not to respond, though, when he calls me a Baal worshipping, deceived devotee of a satanic cult who is destined someday to give in and pay the indulgence money and get an anullment from my marriage to him. I have reasoned till I’m blue in the face that none of the above is true and that neither I nor the Catholic Church wants to see our marriage end (and that I will fight tooth and nail to see that it doesn’t), but he is just so full of hate right now he can’t see straight. I know that what this really boils down to is spiritual warfare, and there’s plenty of it going on around here. Prayers would be greatly appreciated - thanks in advance.

 

[mtr01]

CrisDee,

Glad I could be of some help. My prayers are with you as you try to resolve these issues with your husband. I certainly hope however, that his issues with your faith stem from his concern for your salvation rather than just some deep hatred of the Catholic Church per se.

If you don’t mind some unsolicited advice, I would suggest that you first start by finding out as much about our faith as you can. The more conversant you are in what the Church actually teaches, it will be easier some of the false beliefs he harbors. Some good places to start are “What Catholics Really Believe” by Karl Keating, “The Essential Catholic Handbook” by John Cardinal O’Connor, or even “Catholiism for Dummies” by John Triglio and Kenneth Brighenti. These will give you a good foundation in our doctrines and customs (and the difference between the two).

I would also find out the basic tenets of his denomination, and try to stress any similaritites…I often find people are more receptive when you can find a common ground (even protestent denominations contain varying degrees of truth).

One thing I wouldn’t worry about at this point is trying to convert him. As I gather, right now you are more interested in understanding than conversion…so if you end up discussing Sacred Tradition (for example) as a rule of faith, be careful to just explain the orthodox position of the Church, and resist the urge to go off on a polemic about sola scriptura. Once you can get him to understand that the Catholic Church is not the “Whore of Babylon”, perhaps down the road he’ll come all the way home to Rome. Good luck and God Bless

 

[jmm08]

CrisDee:

I’m the one whose husband is going ballistic over my decision to convert to Catholicism, so please understand that it is not my intention to insult or incite controversy, I am just trying to get some answers to some of the hateful things my beloved but anti-Catholic husband is saying about the Church.

I can identify with you a little. I’m the one who is somewhat reluctant to tell my wife “Oh by the way honey, awhile ago while you blinked I decided to become Roman Catholic.” Instead, I am trying to slip it in the back door. She was already praying to saints sometimes, so we are starting to pray Catholic prayers together at night (Michael the Archangel, St. Jude, Apostle’s Creed). If I knew a better answer, I might use it myself. Maybe I’ll be no help. And don’t rely too heavily on what I say, I am just signed up for RCIA / RCIC like you probably are.

CrisDee:

During one of his recent rants (which are getting more and more frequent), he made a statement about the Jesuits being “the Pope’s SS” (yes, as in like the Nazi SS).

I agree with the person who said about Jack Chick. Don’t bother trying to figure out the Jack Chick stuff. But one of his funny books says the head of the Jesuits is the “Black Pope”. And I guess Pope John Paul II is the “White Pope”. It is all quite ignorant. A third kind of Pope (which is actually not a member of the Roman Catholic Church) is an “Anti-Pope”. From what I understand, an “Anti-Pope” is anybody who sets themselves up as the bona fide Pope saying the real Roman Catholic Pope is a fraud. I think Anyone who so opposes the real Pope saying the real Pope is a fraud is automatically excommunicated.

The first Anti-Pope was St. Hippolytus whose feast day was last Friday. Yes it is possible to be an anti-Pope and still get saved. Only by repenting and reconciling to the Church which is what St. Hippolytus did.
Catholic Online:

St. Hippolytus – Feastday August 13
Martyr of Rome, with Concordia and other companions, he is a controversial figure who censured Pope St. Callistus I. Hippolytus was slain in Sardinia where he had been exiled for being elected as an antipope, the first in the history of the Church. He was reconciled to the Church before his martyrdom. His writings were important, including A Refutation of All Heresies, Song of Songs, and The Apostolic Tradition.

White Pope, Black Pope, Anti-Pope. Those are the only three Popes I’ve heard of. I think Black Pope is ignorant fable. White Pope is also a made-up term, referring to the color of cap. Anti-Pope is not part of the Catholic Church (it is schismatic or heretical). There is only one Pope in the Roman Catholic Church, not three. There are many anti-Popes at this time all outside the Catholic Church.

With so much inaccuracy about the Roman Catholic Church it is rather a miracle that God could reach out to me through all of it. And there are also so many incredible things in history.

I recently read Bishop Sheen’s “Life is Worth Living” (printed transcripts of two years of “Life is Worth Living” telecasts. Bishop Sheen excellently explains very many things. So much, that I don’t think I have any remaining intellectual problems to overcome. But my wife thinks he dresses up like Batman when she sees him on TV, so she thinks he is stupid. I explained to her today that Bishop Sheen not only has a Doctorate from the University of Louvain in Belgium, but also the higher agrégé degree with Very Highest Distinction.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

jmm08:

But one of his funny books says the head of the Jesuits is the “Black Pope”.

The term “Black Pope” as applied to the Superior General of the Society of Jesus was not invented by Jack Chick.

The Jesuits were and still are a sizeable order in terms of numbers; I suspect that they may be the largest single religious order of men in the Church. They have also wielded great power and influence in (spiritual) and outside (temporal) the Church. The days of their heavy involvement in temporal affairs are essentially past; they still wield considerable power in the spiritual realm.

The term “black” pope (the color reference is intended to distinguish between the clerical garb of a typical Jesuit - black, versus that of the Pope - white) came into being as a somewhat grudging, somewhat perjorative description that was intended to point out the powerful nature of the role exercised by the Society’s Superior General.

Has every Jesuit been a model of Catholic ideals - no, but name any organization as large as the Society and tell me that all of its members have consistently adhered to any given precept. The number of Jesuit lives that have been sacrificed in the spread of Catholicism is incredible and this has been the case throughout history - China in the days of the Emperor through the period of Communist rule, Japan in the days of the Shoguns through the pre-War period, India throughout the centuries, Ethiopia, Russia from the days of Catherine the Great through the days of the Gulags.

The Society has contributed immeasurably to education. Its members have advanced science, from flight through seismology. Some of the great theologians of Catholicism have been and continue to be Jesuits, for instance Cardinal Tomas Spidlik and Avery Dulles. The Society’s contributions to the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches have been without peer; these range from the near- martyrdom of people like the Servant of God Father Walter Ciszek, SJ, of blessed memory, to the scholarship of the Right Reverend Achimandrite and Mitred Archpriest Robert Cardinal Taft, SJ. and that involvement continues to this day - there are several Jesuits who are presently hierarchs of Eastern Catholic canonical jurisdictions and the current “black pope” was ordained to the service of the Armenian Catholic Church.

See the following:

Father Walter Ciszek

Jesuit Cardinals

Jesuit Scientists & Mathematicians

Jesuit Artists & Scholars

Jesuit Missionaries, Explorers, Martyrs

Jesuit Educators

Jesuit History

Major Persecutions of Catholics in the 20th Century

Many years,

Neil

 

[metal1633]

CrisDee:

Minerva:

the Jesuits aren’t the pope’s SS - they don’t even listen to the pope anymore!QUOTE]

Well that’s what I thought, but I’m too new in Catholic teachings to know.

I don’t know if this is relevant, but I just remembered him mentioning some years ago a book called “Holy Blood Holy Grail”, a “DaVinci Code” type book that was written a number of years ago. It could be that much of his misinformation was taken from this book and others like it - does anyone have any thoughts on this?

That book is a work of fiction. A made up story. Not True. He will need to be able to distinguish a history book from a story book before this discussion with him will go anywhere.

 

[metal1633]

CrisDee:

Hermit, I’m so sorry but that’s what he said, and the reason I posted it at all was to try to find out what in the world he might be talking about. He has been throwing all sorts of horrible, contemptible venom at me about the Catholic church. His bizzare misconceptions have been most hurtful to me, and I am just trying to understand where he might be coming from.

If you want to understand where he is coming from, read this…

catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts.asp

 

[trogiah]

Crissdee

The words of Pope John XXIII, echoed by our current pope, seem appropriate.
“That which unites us as believers in Christ is far less than what divides us.”

The celebration of sacraments in the Catholic Church is very important but because of turns in history, such celebration can be a cause of division between Christians of various denominations. I would suggest looking for ways to practice faith that both of you can agree on. Is there any simple works of charity that you both could feel was worthwhile?

Regarding the charges of bad things done by popes, priests, and even saints: The fact is they were all flawed people. None of us are without flaws except Jesus himself.

That doesn’t mean the historical connection with Peter should be broken. Consider the scripture from Matthew’s Gospel

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples,
saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.
Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example”

And then Jesus spells out a list of criticisms that would rival what your husband is saying.

My point is that any follower of Jesus should recognize that the historical connection religious leaders have with the past is in no way dissolved by the flaws and sinfullness of those leaders.

I don’t know if this point of view would mean anything to your husband but I thought I would suggest it

Unity is important in a marriage as well as in a church. It almost seems like you are being forced to choose one over the other. I will hope and pray that you don’t have to make that choice.

-Jim

 

[Amadeus]

Dear Forum:

What does Irish Melkite know about the Jesuits?

Very, very much!

Neil is a product of one of the most distinguished Jesuit institutes of higher learning: Boston College.

He could very well be the “little” Black Pope in our midst!

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

 

[Mike_C]

I remember the Jesuits being referred to as “God’s Storm Toopers” because of their training, and dedication.

The “black Pope” is the name given to the Superior General of the Jesuits because of the power he has. Well, ignorant people can twist the facts anyway they want.

Yes, I read the book “Holy Blood, Holy Grail”. I can see where Dan Brown got his ideas from. Despite its research, I think it was definitely one sided. There was no proof for any of the theories presented. But anyone can “think up” any theory and then go ahead and “back it up” with “secret documents”.

 

[joegrabowski]

The fiasco to which your husband is referring with the “three popes” statement can be researched through the Catholic Encyclopedia at www.newadvent.org . Look up articles on “The Western Schism,” “The Council of Pisa,” and “The Council of Constance.” Basically, it was all a result of politics mixing with the Church, the interference of civil authorities in ecclesiastical matters, and none-too-few less than admirable cardinals. Still, the whole affair doesn’t do much damage to the case for papal infallibility and apostolic succession, and for information on those two subjects you need look no further than Catholic Answers.