Jesus Beads, or Chotki

[Polluted]

What’s this I hear about the breathing tecniques being dangerous? I mean, what’s gonna happen? Why is there danger involved? Why is it said one needs a guide for this “prayer”

 

[Micosil]

I think this is instructive:

orthodoxprayer.org/Articles_files/Ware-7%20Breathing%20Exercises.html

For obvious reasons the utmost discretion is necessary when interfering with instinctive bodily activities such as the drawing of breath or the beating of the heart. Misuse of the physical technique can damage someone’s health and disturb his mental equilibrium; hence the importance of a reliable master. If no such starets is available, it is best for the beginner to restrict himself simply to the actual recitation of the Jesus Prayer, without troubling at all about the rhythm of his breath or his heart-beats. More often than not he will find that, without any conscious effort on his part, the words of the Invocation adapt themselves spontaneously to the movement of his breathing. If this does not in fact happen, there is no cause for alarm; let him continue quietly with the work of mental invocation.

 

[TimothyH]

Martin Laird OSA talks about breathing in his book “Into the Silent Land.”

He says that it is not clear what the few (Theophan and Ignatii) who claim it is dangerous are reacting to and that the modern claim that it is dangerous has been overblown.

All I have ever heard is that it is dangerous but no one has ever offered me a suitable explanation as to why. Breathing is natural. You can’t live without breathing. The entire history of using the Jesus Prayer speaks of using the breath positively.

 

[Augustine]

Perhaps the greatest risk is against the spiritual health. For it’s very tempting to think that the physical technique is in any way the cause, rather than a facilitation, of the spiritual benefits of prayer. Worse yet, instead of regarding prayer and its purification of the soul and mind a grace granted by God, the person might become puffed up for mastering a technique and foolishly think of himself the master of his spiritual growth. Then, what is a road to God becomes a road to an idol and perdition.

Pax Christi

 

[Cavaradossi]

As an aside, I’ll never understand why people insist on calling it a chotki when there is already a perfectly descriptive English name available (prayer rope). We really need to strip some of this nonsensical exoticism away from what is essentially a counting device which isn’t even used for any formalized type of prayer.

Now to the question of why one needs a spiritual guide for praying the Jesus Prayer, the answer is that the Jesus Prayer is not unique in this respect. One needs a guide to help establish any sort of consistent and meaningful life of prayer, whether he is praying the canonical hours, the Jesus Prayer, a combination of both, etc. Few people who self-direct their prayer life manage to make good progress, just as a child left to his own devices rather than receiving the consistent guidance of his parents will seldom grow to be a disciplined man.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

What’s this I hear about the breathing tecniques being dangerous? I mean, what’s gonna happen? Why is there danger involved? Why is it said one needs a guide for this “prayer”

The primary issue, as Met. Kallistos Ware points out in a number of places, is that the Fathers are rather (and deliberately) vague when speaking about breathing techniques. None of them really spell out the breathing technique in enough detail for one to tackle it on one’s own without a guide. Some even speak of holding the breath for a brief period of time. Others combine certain postures which can induce migraine headaches, among a number of other posture-related issues, with these breathing techniques. Hence the potential for physical danger.

The real issue, as Sts. Ignatius Brianchaninov and Theophan the Recluse point out, is folks equating the techniques and the natural effects of these techniques with real spiritual progress. Controlled breathing and physical postures have natural effects - i.e. increased warmth, relaxation, altered mental state, etc. - that many confuse for spiritual effects. This is one area where the danger of delusion really comes in.

I do believe, however, that there is a tendency to over-emphasize the necessity of a spiritual guide - to the point of creating a fear in folks just starting out that they ought not even pursue the spiritual life without a guide. In reality, the vast majority of us have little to no access to someone capable of offering proper guidance. It’s good to remember that the Fathers who wrote on the necessity for a spiritual guide were writing for folks living an extraordinary vocation - i.e. monasticism. The vast majority of us, however, live in an “ordinary” vocation - i.e. the married/lay state. Unlike monastics and hermits, married people have a spiritual guide practically built-in to their vocation; their spouse. Even for non-monastic and non-married lay people, there are still other options available than the form of spiritual direction proffered in the writings of the Fathers. I suggest checking out Met. Kallistos Ware’s book “The Inner Kingdom” for suitable alternatives.

 

[TimothyH]

The primary issue, as Met. Kallistos Ware points out in a number of places, is that the Fathers are rather (and deliberately) vague when speaking about breathing techniques. None of them really spell out the breathing technique in enough detail for one to tackle it on one’s own without a guide. Some even speak of holding the breath for a brief period of time. Others combine certain postures which can induce migraine headaches, among a number of other posture-related issues, with these breathing techniques. Hence the potential for physical danger.

The real issue, as Sts. Ignatius Brianchaninov and Theophan the Recluse point out, is folks equating the techniques and the natural effects of these techniques with real spiritual progress. Controlled breathing and physical postures have natural effects - i.e. increased warmth, relaxation, altered mental state, etc. - that many confuse for spiritual effects. This is one area where the danger of delusion really comes in.

I do believe, however, that there is a tendency to over-emphasize the necessity of a spiritual guide - to the point of creating a fear in folks just starting out that they ought not even pursue the spiritual life without a guide. In reality, the vast majority of us have little to no access to someone capable of offering proper guidance. It’s good to remember that the Fathers who wrote on the necessity for a spiritual guide were writing for folks living an extraordinary vocation - i.e. monasticism. The vast majority of us, however, live in an “ordinary” vocation - i.e. the married/lay state. Unlike monastics and hermits, married people have a spiritual guide practically built-in to their vocation; their spouse. Even for non-monastic and non-married lay people, there are still other options available than the form of spiritual direction proffered in the writings of the Fathers. I suggest checking out Met. Kallistos Ware’s book “The Inner Kingdom” for suitable alternatives.

This is a very well thought out and practical approach to the issue Phillip and I agree totally with creating fear.

Again, Martin Laird, an Augustinian Monk, has a very practical approach to breathing. You take a deep breath before you do anything important. It helps calm you, that’s all.

It really isn’t a big deal. I think people just over complicate things.

-Tim-

 

[Polluted]

So it’s safe for me to buy some Jesus beads, and maybe even throw in a breathing technique here or there, nothing super trippy or mystical is gonna attack me or something weird?

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

So it’s safe for me to buy some Jesus beads, and maybe even throw in a breathing technique here or there, nothing super trippy or mystical is gonna attack me or something weird?

It is every bit as safe as praying the Rosary. Go for it. Just bear in mind that the breathing techniques are meant to calm you and help you focus on the prayer. Nothing more.

Send me an email regarding acquiring a prayer rope. I’very been making and selling them for nearly a decade now. I think I have my website linked in my signature.

 

[Vico]

What’s this I hear about the breathing tecniques being dangerous? I mean, what’s gonna happen? Why is there danger involved? Why is it said one needs a guide for this “prayer”

Orthodox Bisphp Kallistos Ware wrote:
Orthodox writers in the last 150 years have in general laid little emphasis upon the physical techniques. The counsel given by Bishop Ignatii Brianchaninov (1807-67) is typical:

We advise our beloved brethren not to try to establish this technique within them, if it does not reveal itself of its own accord. Many, wishing to learn it by experience, have damaged their lungs and gained nothing. The essence of the matter consists in the union of the mind with the heart during prayer, and this is achieved by the grace of God in its own time, determined by God. The breathing technique is fully replaced by the unhurried enunciation of the Prayer, by a short rest or pause at the end, each time it is said, by gentle and unhurried breathing, and by the enclosure of the mind in the words of the Prayer. By means of these aids we can easily attain to a certain degree of attention.
As regards the speed of recitation, Bishop Ignatii suggests: To say the Jesus Prayer a hundred time attentively and without haste, about half an hour is needed, but some ascetics require even longer. Do not say the prayers hurriedly, one immediately after another. Make a short pause after each prayer, and so help the mind to concentrate. Saying the Prayer without pauses distracts the mind. Breathe with care, gently and slowly.
Beginners in the use of the Prayer will probably prefer a somewhat faster pace than is here proposed — perhaps twenty minutes for a hundred prayers. In the Greek tradition there are teacher who recommend a far brisker rhythm; the very rapidity of the Invocation, so they maintain, helps to hold the mind attentive.
​

orthodoxprayer.org/Articles_files/Ware-7%20Breathing%20Exercises.html

 

[TimothyH]

It is every bit as safe as praying the Rosary. Go for it. Just bear in mind that the breathing techniques are meant to calm you and help you focus on the prayer. Nothing more.

Send me an email regarding acquiring a prayer rope. I’very been making and selling them for nearly a decade now. I think I have my website linked in my signature.

Phillip’s ropes are works of art.

-Tim-

 

[Muzhik]

As an aside, I’ll never understand why people insist on calling it a chotki when there is already a perfectly descriptive English name available (prayer rope). We really need to strip some of this nonsensical exoticism away from what is essentially a counting device which isn’t even used for any formalized type of prayer.

FWIW, my Russian-born wife (may G_D keep her close) referred to these items as “Chotki”. I don’t consider it an “exoticism” to refer to something by the name the natives use. It’s for this reason that I refer to the marinated-pork-cooked-on-a-skewer as “shashlik” (apologies for the poor transliteration), or shredded cabbage soup with meat and vegetables (in the Caucasus regions; shredded beets are used in the north) as “borshch” (NOT “borsht” – there’s no “t” in the word.)

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

FWIW, my Russian-born wife (may G_D keep her close) referred to these items as “Chotki”. I don’t consider it an “exoticism” to refer to something by the name the natives use. It’s for this reason that I refer to the marinated-pork-cooked-on-a-skewer as “shashlik” (apologies for the poor transliteration), or shredded cabbage soup with meat and vegetables (in the Caucasus regions; shredded beets are used in the north) as “borshch” (NOT “borsht” – there’s no “t” in the word.)

One could just as easily refer to it as a “komboskini,” or “vervitsa,” or “rosary,” etc. I think the person’s point was that it’s probably just as efficient to refer to it as a “prayer rope” as that is the standard English name for it. One way or another, it’s all semantics and we all know what is being referred to.