Jesus' brethren and Mary's Virginity

[LittleDeb]

Chris LaRock:

We know the bible is the inspired word of God. We don’t know for sure if the traditions of the CC are inspired of God or simply the word of man. It’s a conflict of conscience for the Non-Catholic, since the CC traditions seem to be adding to the bible in many areas. Can’t you understand that? Quoting your saints, popes, and Catholic literature isn’t very convincing to anybody who hasn’t been told why these sources are reliable.

Yes, I can understand that. But we Catholics have asked Protestants, " WHY do you know?" Scripture is not self evident to people who don’t believe in God. You know scripture is the inspired word of God because someone taught you. We know (Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium) are for the same reason. That each group has also investigated this knowledge and ended up with different ‘truths’ is what causes the disagreement.

Glad to see you did read the link I gave you. I have hope for ya’ Chris!

Still, WHY did Mary have no other children if she later had relations with Joseph? I think Truthseeker has a good handle on it. She didn’t because he didn’t. Wow to be in the presence of The Ark! She was a spouse of The Holy Spirit! I gotta go hunt down that passage in EZ 44! Thanks Truthseeker!

 

[Milliardo]

Chris LaRock:

We know the bible is the inspired word of God.

You know it is because you were taught by someone that it is. As LittleDeb explained, Scripture is not self intepreting, or self evident (or else we wouldn’t even be having this discussion in the first place, like I stated earlier). The best proof for this is that Muslims themselves don’t see the Bible to be the inspired word of God, and in fact would refute it.

 

[LittleDeb]

Protestante:

You say this but you don’t look at other verses within Matthews gospel. What about Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ "

This obviously shows until to show up to a time of. What about this…
Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

There are FAR more verses in Matthew than denote the meaning of up to a time than the “Before and After” meaning! I could show you more if you’d like.

Ah, but all of your examples so far are dealing with specific instructions of before and after.

Under your personal interpretation the others in Matthew would then read “Do not have relations until the birth then you may have relations.” and “I will be with you until the end of the world and then I might be with you after the end of the world.”

Both examples you give say exactly what is to be done before and when and what is to be done after. Fire away with more if you would like but we might want to start another thread as this one is about Mary being the spouse of the Holy Spirit. So unless they are quotes that in fact say she was NOT the Spouse of The Holy Spirit we should take them elswhere.

I won’t castigate for slinging Bible verses since I started it. But your personal interpretation will not stand up to 2000 years of His Church. Please PM if you start another thread on this. I would like to participate.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

LittleDeb:

Yes, I can understand that. But we Catholics have asked Protestants, " WHY do you know?" Scripture is not self evident to people who don’t believe in God. You know scripture is the inspired word of God because someone taught you. We know (Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium) are for the same reason. That each group has also investigated this knowledge and ended up with different ‘truths’ is what causes the disagreement.

Glad to see you did read the link I gave you. I have hope for ya’ Chris!

Still, WHY did Mary have no other children if she later had relations with Joseph? I think Truthseeker has a good handle on it. She didn’t because he didn’t. Wow to be in the presence of The Ark! She was a spouse of The Holy Spirit! I gotta go hunt down that passage in EZ 44! Thanks Truthseeker!

Actually, the bible is self provable. It has a wealth of prophetic, historic, and scientific facts to prove that it is inspired by God. I didn’t grow up in a bible and church home. I had to read it for myself and do my own soul searching to reach this conclusion. If you’d take the time to look at a book entitled ‘scientific facts in the bible’ by ray comfort, you’d see why the bible is the inspired word of God.

Why didn’t she have other children if she had sexual relations later? This question implies that a lack of children proves perpetual virginity. Does it? Women don’t always have children after carrying on marital relations. I personally don’t see why she wouldn’t have had other children or carried on marital relations, since it would not have had any bearing on Christ or his reason for coming into this world. Would it have made him any less holy?

Where does it say she was the spouse of the holy spirit? I’m really not trying to offend, but I see all of this as an exaltation of Mary and nothing more. The only consistant argument I’ve gotten so far is stuff like:

“You’re just an ignorant protestant barbarian without understanding, and you don’t understand why our traditions and doctrines are true.”

 

[LittleDeb]

Chris LaRock:

Actually, the bible is self provable. It has a wealth of prophetic, historic, and scientific facts to prove that it is inspired by God. I didn’t grow up in a bible and church home. I had to read it for myself and do my own soul searching to reach this conclusion. If you’d take the time to look at a book entitled ‘scientific facts in the bible’ by ray comfort, you’d see why the bible is the inspired word of God.

Why didn’t she have other children if she had sexual relations later? This question implies that a lack of children proves perpetual virginity. Does it? Women don’t always have children after carrying on marital relations. I personally don’t see why she wouldn’t have had other children or carried on marital relations, since it would not have had any bearing on Christ or his reason for coming into this world. Would it have made him any less holy?

Where does it say she was the spouse of the holy spirit? I’m really not trying to offend, but I see all of this as an exaltation of Mary and nothing more. The only consistant argument I’ve gotten so far is stuff like:

“You’re just an ignorant protestant barbarian without understanding, and you don’t understand why our traditions and doctrines are true.”

Hey that’s okay I’ve been called, “a bead-carrying, statue worshipping, Bible ignorant, papist.” I won’t take it personally if you don’t

I really would like to participate in a disscussion about your views on the Bible, just not here. Start a thread and PM me and I will participate.

So on this topic I am interested in coming to an understanding on other children and the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

I remember Waaaaayyyy back in this thread mentioning that there were some OT passages about Mary’s perpetual virginity. Truthseeker quotes one of them quite well. It was one I hadn’t studied personally but I really like it now! If The Woman is saying “the gate is closed!” then the gate is closed. Scripture is full of that kind of thing. The tough part is Protestants refuse to acknowledge who The Woman is, even in Revelations. They don’t like to believe that Mary is talked about ALL through the OT. It proves who Jesus is by proving who Mary WAS. In the OT they believed she was an ever-virgin and spouse of the Holy Spirit and they hadn’t met her yet.

About your idea on women who have relations without reproducing? That is a relatively recent problem caused by contraception. (Please note you are talking to a woman who almost bought into the whole contraception movement.) The only women in those times who did not have many children also had no children. If you were a married woman in those times you were one of three things: barren, mother to a whole flock of kids, or dead because you died in childbirth.

To have one child during a lengthy marriage was highly unusual. If a woman had no more children it assumed she was celibate. The Jews took the sin of Onan seriously (led to death) and the other forms of contraception (pharmekia) were likewise condemned.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

LOL! Anti-Catholic ranting makes a better argument FOR Catholicism than the most skilled Catholic apologists.

You can always go to the forum in my signature and we can talk there.