Jesus did die on a cross

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Jesus prayers were heard, and he was saved from getting a cursed killing on Cross…

The above was taken from a different thread (and many more threads too). I never thought I would have to defend the Jesus actually dying on the cross; I would have thought there was enough historical evidence to defend it. But it seems, Satan is relentless.

Denying the crucifixion (Qur’an 4:157) only serves Satan, because he is the one that will benefit from us denying the perfect atoning sacrifice for our sins. So, it’s only natural for me, that if you deny the crucifixion, I will treat you with contempt.

Furthermore, the suffering of Jesus, as cruel as it is, was actually foretold in prophecy, and the Prophet Isaiah told us that is was God’s will;

“But he endured the suffering that should have been ours, the pain that we should have borne. All the while we thought that his suffering was punishment sent by God. But because of our sins he was wounded, beaten because of the evil we did. We are healed by the punishment he suffered, made whole by the blows he received. All of us were like sheep that were lost, each of us going his own way. But the Lord made the punishment fall on him, the punishment all of us deserved.” (Is. 53:4-6) The Lord says, “It was my will that he should suffer; his death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness. And so he will see his descendants; he will live a long life, and through him my purpose will succeed.” (Is. 53:10)

Now, given that his death fits perfectly with prophecy, why should I believe that Jesus did not die on the cross?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The above was taken from a different thread (and many more threads too). I never thought I would have to defend the Jesus actually dying on the cross; I would have thought there was enough historical evidence to defend it. But it seems, Satan is relentless.

Denying the crucifixion (Qur’an 4:157) only serves Satan, because he is the one that will benefit from us denying the perfect atoning sacrifice for our sins. So, it’s only natural for me, that if you deny the crucifixion, I will treat you with contempt.

Furthermore, the suffering of Jesus, as cruel as it is, was actually foretold in prophecy, and the Prophet Isaiah told us that is was God’s will;

“But he endured the suffering that should have been ours, the pain that we should have borne. All the while we thought that his suffering was punishment sent by God. But because of our sins he was wounded, beaten because of the evil we did. We are healed by the punishment he suffered, made whole by the blows he received. All of us were like sheep that were lost, each of us going his own way. But the Lord made the punishment fall on him, the punishment all of us deserved.” (Is. 53:4-6) The Lord says, “It was my will that he should suffer; his death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness. And so he will see his descendants; he will live a long life, and through him my purpose will succeed.” (Is. 53:10)

Now, given that his death fits perfectly with prophecy, why the hell should I believe that Jesus did not die on the cross?

I remember the shock when I first read Psalm 22.16: I knew from previous study of history that when the Psalm was composed, crucifixion didn’t exist (the Romans introduced it to the Jews). Now that’s prophecy.

I’ve been on those threads, and the answer hasn’t changed: we have contemporary and near contemporary evidence from the Romans, Jews and Christians, the only ones there, that the Crucifixion happened.

AND PAARSURREY: FIRST POST ANY EVIDENCE YOU HAVE OF JESUS DYING IN KAHSMIR BEFORE YOU POST YOUR MYTH.

 

[Edward62]

What? That is insane. The Bible is the Word of God and the Koran is not… the Bible says that Jesus died on the Cross, so obviously He did.

 

[rpp]

That is an evil assertion that cannot be reconciled with history. And I do not mean the Bible. There are accounts and records of Jesus’ crucifixion from secular sources.

I am shocked and angered.

 

[rkberlin]

I don’t get it…who’s questioning that Jesus died on a cross? Crucifixion was a common way to execute people back in those days, if you’re looking at it from a historical view. Besides, too much evidence in Scripture, that should be enough for us. Which prophet said again “he’ll be pierced”? I can never remember that.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I don’t get it…who’s questioning that Jesus died on a cross?..

Qur’an 4:157

… Which prophet said again “he’ll be pierced”? I can never remember that.

Zechariah 12:10 - "They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death, and they will mourn for him like those who mourn for an only child…

And, of course, that prophecy was fulfilled…

John 19:34 - One of the soldiers, however, plunged his spear into Jesus’ side, and at once blood and water poured out.

 

[colliric]

Not to mention the spot on Gospel description of the Holy Sepulcher that still stands, now in a huge Orthodox church, on the site of Calvary.

It doesn’t end the debate, but it gives the gospel’s descriptions a superb sense of near total accuracy in their descriptions.

 

[paarsurrey]

[Qur’an 4:157/158

Hi

I am pleased to start my (name removed by moderator)ut in this thread , on the choice of my dear Catholic friend Charlie Zeaiter
[/quote]

, from Quran 4:158with the verses in its context for clear understanding of the members in the forum, I think you won’t mind it, please:

**The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa’ **

[4:151] Surely, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and seek to make a distinction between Allah and His Messengers, and say, ‘We believe in some and disbelieve in others,’ and seek to take a way between;
[4:152] These really are the disbelievers, and We have prepared for the disbelievers an humiliating punishment.
[4:153] And those who believe in Allah and in all his Messengers and make no distinction between any of them, to such He will soon give their rewards. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[4:154] The people of the Book ask thee to bring down upon them a Book from heaven. They asked Moses a greater thing than this. They said, ‘Show us Allah openly.’ Thereupon a destructive punishment overtook them because of their transgression. Then they took the calf for worship after clear Signs had come to them, but We pardoned even that. And We gave Moses a manifest authority.
[4:155] And We raised high above them the Mount while making a covenant with them, and We said to them, ‘Enter the gate submissively,’ and We said to them, ‘Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath.’ And We took from them a firm covenant.
[4:156] So, for their breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,’ - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little -
[4:157] And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny;
[4:158] And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.” Unquote

The evidence offerred in the above verses has been explained by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 in a small book titled “Jesus in India”:
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

I give and excerpt from it hereunder:
**CHAPTER 2
On the evidence of the Holy Quran
and authentic traditions in proof
of Jesus’ survival **

The arguments which I am now going to set out, might seem to be useless so far as they are meant for Christians, for these people are not bound by what the Holy Quran or the Hadith say on this question; but I state them because I wish Christians to know of a miracle of our Holy Quran and Holy Prophet; to tell them that the truth which has been discovered after hundreds of years has already been proclaimed by our Holy Prophet and Holy Quran. Accordingly, I set down some of it below.

Almighty God says in the Holy Quran: The Jews neither murdered Jesus, not did they kill him on the Cross; no, they only suspected that Jesus had died on the Cross; they did not have proof which could have convinced and satisfied them that Jesus (on whom be peace) had really died on the Cross.” Unquote

To be continued.

I often quote from the writings of the PromisedMessiah, to make it convenient for my Catholic friends to convert me to your cherished faith, if you refute his arguments and your arguments exceed that of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s arguments; I being steadfast on my faith, keep a window or a door open to welcome the truth from anywhere it comes to me. The Catholics are in this way in direct contest with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

Thanks

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Thank you, paarsurrey;

Unfortunately, I have no reason to believe that the Qur’an contains truth. And I have no reason to believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has revealed any more truth.

Therein lies our problem.

Perhaps you would be willing to start a new thread, explaining to us why you believe the Qur’an and M G Ahmad have truth. Until then, bye-bye.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thank you, paarsurrey;
Unfortunately, I have no reason to believe that the Qur’an contains truth. And I have no reason to believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has revealed any more truth.
Therein lies our problem.
Perhaps you would be willing to start a new thread, explaining to us why you believe the Qur’an and M G Ahmad have truth. Until then, bye-bye.

Hi

I just followed your post # 6 above, which I quote below:

Originally Posted by rkberlin
I don’t get it…who’s questioning that Jesus died on a cross?..
Qur’an 4:157
Quote:
… Which prophet said again “he’ll be pierced”? I can never remember that.
Zechariah 12:10 - "They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death, and they will mourn for him like those who mourn for an only child…

And, of course, that prophecy was fulfilled…

John 19:34 - One of the soldiers, however, plunged his spear into Jesus’ side, and at once blood and water poured out.

You can see that you quoted Qur’an 4:157 first, and therefore I started from Quran, otherwise you won’t see me quoting Quran usually as I know my Catholic friends don’t yet believe in Quran.

Then I would have followed ,Zechariah 12:10, then John 19:34, from the NTBible; so my friend there is no point in being angry.

Please return to the discussion, I miss you.

May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

The evidence offered in Holy Quran: Chapter 4: Al-Nisa’ [4:151-159] has been explained by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 in a small book titled “Jesus in India”: alislam.org/library/books…dia/index.html

I give next excerpt from it hereunder:

In these verses Almighty God states that although it is true that Jesus was apparently placed on the Cross, and that they were determined to kill him; yet, it is wrong for Jews and Christians to suppose that Jesus did really die on the Cross. No, God created circumstances which saved Jesus from death on the Cross.

Now, if one were just, one must say that what the Holy Quran had said against Jews and Christians turned out ultimately to be true. Investigations of a very high standard to-day have proved that Jesus had really been saved from death on the Cross. A study of the records shows that the Jews have never been able to reply to the question: How was it that Jesus died within two or three hours when his bones were not broken?

This has led the Jews to put in another plea – that they killed Jesus by the sword, whereas the ancient history of the Jews does not show that Jesus was killed by the sword. The majesty and power of the Divine Being made it dark in order that Jesus might be saved. There was an earthquake. Pilate’s wife saw a vision. The Sabbath night was about to fall, when it was improper to let a crucified body remain on the Cross. The magistrate, because of the terrible dream, became disposed towards the release of Jesus.

All this was brought about simultaneously by God to save Jesus. Jesus himself was made to go into a swoon that he might be taken for dead. Through terrible signs like the earthquake, etc. there were produced in the Jews cowardice, and fear, and also fear of heavenly punishment. There was also the fear lest the corpses should remain on their crosses during the Sabbath night.

Again, the Jews, seeing Jesus in a swoon, thought that he was dead. It was dark. And there was an earthquake and great excitement. They also became anxious about their homes – how must the children be feeling in that darkness and earthquake? There was also a terror in their hearts that if this man was a liar and a Kafir, as they thought he was, why were mighty signs manifested at the moment of his suffering – signs which had not been manifested before. They were so upset that they no longer were in a position to satisfy themselves whether Jesus had really died, or what exactly his condition was.

What had come about, however, was a Divine Design to save Jesus. This is hinted at in the verse… i.e., the Jews did not kill Jesus – God made them believe that they had killed him. This circumstance encourages the righteous to place great trust in God, that God can save His servants as He pleases.

And the Holy Quran contains also the verse: His name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the hereafter, and of those who are granted nearness to God. This means that not only here will Jesus have honour and eminence, and enjoy a greatness in the sight of ordinary people; but also in the hereafter.

Now, it is evident that Jesus was not honoured in the land of Herod and Pilate. He was, on the contrary, disgraced. The suggestion that he would be honoured during his second coming to this earth is baseless. It is against the divine books and the eternal divine law of nature. There is moreover no proof of it. The truth, however, is that as Jesus, having had his release from those accursed people, came to the land of the Punjab and honoured it with his visit, God gave him great eminence – here he met the ten lost tribes of Israel.

It seems that most of these Israelites had adopted Buddhism and some had degenerated into idolatry of a very low kind. But with the coming here of Jesus, most of them returned to the right path; and as there was an exhortation in the teaching of Jesus to believe in the coming Prophet, the ten tribes who came to be known in this land as Afghans and Kashmiris ultimately all became Muslims.

So Jesus came with great honour to this land. There has been discovered recently a coin in this very land of the Punjab, on which is inscribed the name of Jesus (on whom be peace) in Pali characters. This coin belongs to the time of Jesus. This shows that Jesus came to this land and received kingly honour; the coin must have been issued by a king who had become a follower of Jesus.

Another coin has been found with the figure of an Israelite. It seems that this too is the figure of Jesus. The Holy Quran also has a verse which says that Jesus was blessed by God wherever he went… So these coins show that he received great honour from God, and that he did not die until he had kingly honour.
Unquote

Thanks