Jesus is God, but not a Trinity? I don't get it...

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I’ve been thinking about the kind of “non-trinitarian Christianity” whereby Jesus is God (as opposed to sects that don’t believe Jesus is God, but merely a very special being) but there is no Trinity of Persons in God. Thus, “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” are modes or descriptions, but not distinct persons.

It really doesn’t make sense to me at all. I can’t reconcile that sort of theology with Jesus praying to his Father, or saying he has a Father in heaven, or Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (which isn’t a Person either…). It would mean there was no God in heaven while Jesus walked the earth.

I’m curious if anyone here believes Jesus is God but doesn’t believe in the Trinity of Persons in God. If so, would you explain how you reconcile that with Jesus clearly treating the “Father” as someone distinct from himself?
 
japhy said:
I’ve been thinking about the kind of “non-trinitarian Christianity” whereby Jesus is God (as opposed to sects that don’t believe Jesus is God, but merely a very special being) but there is no Trinity of Persons in God. Thus, “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” are modes or descriptions, but not distinct persons.

It really doesn’t make sense to me at all. I can’t reconcile that sort of theology with Jesus praying to his Father, or saying he has a Father in heaven, or Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (which isn’t a Person either…). It would mean there was no God in heaven while Jesus walked the earth.

I’m curious if anyone here believes Jesus is God but doesn’t believe in the Trinity of Persons in God. If so, would you explain how you reconcile that with Jesus clearly treating the “Father” as someone distinct from himself?
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Hi japhy,

I am a Mormon, so I don’t really fit into any of the categories you mentioned. However, I’ve read a lot about different theologies, and talked with people who fit into all the categories you mentioned, so maybe I can help you understand where they are coming from.

You are asking about a heresy called “Modalism,” where God is a single person who appears in three different aspects. The orthodox Trinity doctrine, on the other hand, is that God is a single Being, comprised of three distinct “Persons.” Most people who are modalists can’t understand how there can be three Persons comprising a single Being. Even Trinitarians usually say that this is too great a “mystery” for human minds to comprehend.

When modalists argue for their position, they usually say that Jesus prayed to the Father only to show humans how it is done. Maybe this isn’t a very good explanation of what Jesus was doing (it seems kind of deceptive,) but if they can’t understand how three Persons can be one Being, they figure their version makes more sense than yours.

Please understand that I’m not arguing for Modalism–I don’t believe it, either. I’m just trying to help you understand how modalists think about the issue.
 
This is easy, Jw believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God through creation. The Jw will agree that Jesus can be called God, because they feel that he is second only to his father.

But Jw don’t think that he is almighty.

When Jesus said “The father is greater then I” and constantly glorified The Father. that makes people think The Father is greater.

It dose look like The Father is in charge in much of the gospel dose it not?

When Jesus returned to heaven he alowed himself to be “GIVEN” a name above every other name, and The Father told him to “wait” at his right hand untill his enemies were made as a stool for his feet.

Honestly it dose not seem strange to me that JW feel That The Father is above The Son, its all over the bible. “the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God”.

To me it would be more strange if
these scriptures gave you the impression of the trinity. would you not agree?

do you have any question as to why jw hold the belief that they do?
 
excaliber said:
This is easy, Jw believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God through creation. The Jw will agree that Jesus can be called God, because they feel that he is second only to his father.

But Jw don’t think that he is almighty.

When Jesus said “The father is greater then I” and constantly glorified The Father. that makes people think The Father is greater.

It dose look like The Father is in charge in much of the gospel dose it not?

When Jesus returned to heaven he alowed himself to be “GIVEN” a name above every other name, and The Father told him to “wait” at his right hand untill his enemies were made as a stool for his feet.

Honestly it dose not seem strange to me that JW feel That The Father is above The Son, its all over the bible. “the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God”.

To me it would be more strange if
these scriptures gave you the impression of the trinity. would you not agree?

do you have any question as to why jw hold the belief that they do?
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It does not seem strange to have the impression that these verses, and many others, would reveal the Triune God.

Because jesus is a Divine Person, with two natures, one of man, fully(100%) and one of God, fully(100%), this is not difficult to understand. The fully human nature of Christ is definitely lower than The nature of God the Father. Even though christ is not and was never seperate from the Father, He did take on a fully human nature and therefore these verses support the fully human aspect of Christ’s nature, along with the fully Divine nature He never lost or even lessened.

God conceived with a human, Mary, and therefore Christ has the fully Divine nature and the fully human nature. I am not in any way saying this is half and half, but 100% and 100%. This is the mystery of the incarnation, in that we will never fully understand it, but that we will continue to understand it more and more as we grow closer to our Lord and God.

I hope this helps.

peace, Justin
 
justinthemartyr said:
It does not seem strange to have the impression that these verses, and many others, would reveal the Triune God.

Because jesus is a Divine Person, with two natures, one of man, fully(100%) and one of God, fully(100%), this is not difficult to understand. The fully human nature of Christ is definitely lower than The nature of God the Father. Even though christ is not and was never seperate from the Father, He did take on a fully human nature and therefore these verses support the fully human aspect of Christ’s nature, along with the fully Divine nature He never lost or even lessened.

God conceived with a human, Mary, and therefore Christ has the fully Divine nature and the fully human nature. I am not in any way saying this is half and half, but 100% and 100%. This is the mystery of the incarnation, in that we will never fully understand it, but that we will continue to understand it more and more as we grow closer to our Lord and God.

I hope this helps.

peace, Justin
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The Trinity can be developed through scripture. But to answer the o.p. it is easy to see how Jw’s come to there conclusion.

For example you said that Christ is 100% Man and 100% God.

But all the scripture said was “The Father is Greater then I”
It did not say The Father is greater then my human nature.

So why would a jw think it after reading that scripture?
 
BDawg said:
You are asking about a heresy called “Modalism,” where God is a single person who appears in three different aspects. The orthodox Trinity doctrine, on the other hand, is that God is a single Being, comprised of three distinct “Persons.” Most people who are modalists can’t understand how there can be three Persons comprising a single Being. Even Trinitarians usually say that this is too great a “mystery” for human minds to comprehend.
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I find it helpful to consider the difference between a being and a person. We humans tend to be so human-centered that we think that there is always a 1-to-1 correspondence between being and person.

But this is not so. A dog is a being, but is not a person. So:

Dog = 1 being, 0 persons

Man = 1 being, 1 person

God = 1 being, 3 persons

God could have decided to make humans as 2 or more persons in 1 being, but he decided to make us 1 and 1. The fact that He designed US this way should not prejudice us towards the idea that EVERY being must exist as 1 person.

Paul
 
BDawg said:
The orthodox Trinity doctrine, on the other hand, is that God is a single Being, comprised of three distinct “Persons.”
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I’m curious to know where you found this definition of the trinity. Is it not One God in three Persons. The way you have stated it here suggests that God is lacking something in each of the Three Persons of the Trinity, whereas the Catholic position is that there is nothing of God lacking in any of the Three Persons. There is no Uber-God-Being that is a synthesis of the Three Persons. Each of the Three Persons is God.

In other words, to suggest that God is a single “Being” comprised of 3 separate Persons implies that there is something of God missing from each of the Persons. That is not orthodox teaching.

The Father is God, and nothing less than God
The Son is God, and nothing less than God
The Holy Spirit is God, and nothing less than God.

It is a difficult concept to wrap your head around, isn’t it? 😉

Peace,
-Robert.
 
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