Jesus, Man or/and God while on earth

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Hi Everyone,

i am currently in dialogue with a Protestant friend of mine. try as i might, i cannot seem to convince him that Jesus is both man and God while on earth.

when i quoted verses that show that Jesus is worshipped here on earth, he likens it to idol worship, as in teenage girls of today worshipping boy bands etc.

any knows whether the Greek word for worship as used in the NT refers specifically to God only or something like that.

or is there any sure fire example which undisputatedly proves that Jesus is both man and God while on earth even before His resurrection?

thanks everyone…

ADRIAN
 
the most obvious one would be Jesus’ claim himself whilst on earth, one of which is this:

“Before Abraham ever was, I AM.” (can’t remember the exact verse, sorry)
 
First chapter of John (Word was with God, word was God, Word became flesh). The Verse that mrS4ntA refered to is John 8:58-59. Look also at John 8:19, John 10:30-33, 10:38, 12:45, 14:8-12, 20:28. Lots from John, I know, but that is the gosple that gives us the fullest view of Christ as God and Man. Colosians 2:9 refers to how in Christ God resides bodily and Titus 2:13.
 
You may just want to point your friend into the direction of Lutheran or Calvanist writings on this issue. They never disagreed with Christ’s human/divine nature being concurrent, so their affirmation of this doctrine might hold more water with your friend right now.

Then of course, you can move onto how the Catholic Church has always held these (and other essential Christian doctrines) as true since day 1.
 
If your protestant friend does not believe Jesus was fully God and fully human, then they do not believe their own Protestant doctrine. It was while still in Protestant circles that I did a Bible study on this issue. The Protestants I studied with believe Jesus was fully human and fully God. I know JW’s do not believe Jesus is God, but I’ve never heard of a Protestant church teaching that. I think Your friend is woefully ignorant of their own theology. I guess I could be wrong, because even though the Protestants agree on the basics, maybe the divine nature of Jesus is no longer considered a basic anymore.:rolleyes:
 
it’s apparently no longer basic protestant theology that Jesus is both Man and God while on earth…

such is the diversity in views in protestantism…

anyone from the little island of Singapore in this forum here… this teaching is apparently what “New Creation Church” at “The Rock” teaches… my friend is from there…

wats worrying is that their congregation is growing by leaps and bounds even with apparent cultic teachings like this…

ADRIAN
 
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ANWK:
Hi Everyone,

i am currently in dialogue with a Protestant friend of mine. try as i might, i cannot seem to convince him that Jesus is both man and God while on earth.

when i quoted verses that show that Jesus is worshipped here on earth, he likens it to idol worship, as in teenage girls of today worshipping boy bands etc.

any knows whether the Greek word for worship as used in the NT refers specifically to God only or something like that.

or is there any sure fire example which undisputatedly proves that Jesus is both man and God while on earth even before His resurrection?

thanks everyone…

ADRIAN
You cannot believe that Jesus is anything other that God Incarnate (God made flesh) and still be “Christian”. Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the eternal divinity of Christ and that is why they cannot be considered Christian and is also why their baptisms are invalid. If you don’t have Christ right, everything else is wrong.
 
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ANWK:
it’s apparently no longer basic protestant theology that Jesus is both Man and God while on earth…

such is the diversity in views in protestantism…

anyone from the little island of Singapore in this forum here… this teaching is apparently what “New Creation Church” at “The Rock” teaches… my friend is from there…

wats worrying is that their congregation is growing by leaps and bounds even with apparent cultic teachings like this…

ADRIAN
Sadly your friend is not a very well informed Protestant, and seems to have fallen afoul of some heretical sect if he/she doesn’t believe in the full divinity/humanity of our Incarnate God in Jesus. All truly Christian Protestants affirm Jesus’ divinity as well as His humanity----JWs, Mormons, Christian Science etc. are sects and not Christians much less Protestants—
 
It is curious that a Protestant denies the full, simulatanous deity and humanity of Christ in his earthly ministry. Being a Protestant myself, you may not find my answer helpful, but I will offer it in case you do.

I don’t have a Bible handy, but I think I can point you in some fruitful directions. First, the word generally used for “worship” of Jesus–say, I think it is in Matt. 14:33 where the apostles worship him–is proskyneo. I am just learning Greek and am not an expert, but this word is almost always used for worshipping God. (I know of one possible exception, and that is a parable of Jesus’ in which a man “falls down” before another man; yet in the parable the second man represents God, if I remember correctly.) You need to get your Protestant friend thinking along the right track by saying something like: “Well, look. In Matt. 4, Jesus says worship (proskyneo) God alone, and then in 14:33 is says the apostles worshipped Jesus and he didn’t rebuke them for it! This isn’t the kind of teenage fanaticism of modern times. In fact, you’re anachronistically importing to the ancient Jewish culture a modern practice that has no analogue in first-century Judaism. They didn’t have rock-stars and a teenage subculture like we do today.” Then I would point out that proskyneo is also used in the Septuagint in the ten commandments, the first commandment. Say, “Any Jews who accepted proskyneo believed he was God.” This is why when people bow before angels in the New Testament (e.g., in Revelation), the human is ordered to stand up because the angel is not God.

Second, the I-AM passages in John are, frankly, not as convincing as other verse we have available. I would go to Matthew again, (maybe it is chap. 21, but I am not sure). In the story of Jesus entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, the children shout “Hosanna!” and the scribes rebuke Jesus for accepting these accolades. Jesus then says something like: “Have you never read, ‘out of the mouths of babes I have ordained praise for myself?’” Now the really cool thing here is that Jesus is alluding to Psalm 8, I believe it is, where God says this. It is as if our Lord were saying, “Why are you upset these children are praising me? Haven’t you read in Psalm 8 that children are supposed to praise God?” The obvious implication is that Jesus is God-incarnate, and was during his earthly ministry.

Third, certainly after the resurrection Jesus was God. In Jn 20:28 Thomas says, “My Lord and my God!” and Jesus accepts the praise. But perhaps your friend thinks Jesus became God at the resurrection, so this verse would not be helpful.

Fourth, Paul says in Col. 2, maybe verse 9, that in Jesus “the fullness of deity dwells bodily.” This verse teaches (1) that Jesus is God (“deity”) and (2) that he is at the same time human (“bodily”). While this does not prove that Jesus was God and man while on earth, it does show that there is no contradiction with him being both God and man. So if he is now both God and man at the same moment, why not on earth, too? I doubt a good answer is forthcoming.

Finally, as for Jesus still being a man in heaven, off-hand I can think of 1 Tim 2, where Paul says there is (present tense) one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ. Clearly Paul thinks Jesus is presently a man in heaven as he performs his work of priestly mediation for sinners.

I would double check these references by verse number since I am not certain of all of them. If you have a pressing question, please email me it (ashton.wilkins@gmail.com) as I am a new-comer to this forum and might not be able to find my way back here quickly or easily.

Thanks,
Ashton
 
Jesus is a single person–the Second Person of the Trinity, and that Person is a Divine Person, who took on a human nature. He can’t just discard His divinity while on Earth. It’s who he is.

JimG
 
Hello Adrian,

Ask your protestant friend, "When was Jesus ‘eternally begotten of God’ according to the bible? Or, better yet, “When was Jesus ‘born again’?”

We know that God is Omnipresent to the whole of physical time. Time is a measurement of the interaction of mass, energy and empty space, all of which God created. God exists outside of physical time. God looks at the whole of physical time like looking at a picture on a wall.

So what happened when Jesus was etternally begotten of God? He too, is now Omnipresent to the whole of past, present and future, physical time.

Scripture tells us that it is at His ressurection that Jesus is eternally begotten of God. Upon Christ’s birth to the Father, He is now Omnipresent to the whole of past, present and future, physical, created, time. Upon His birth to the Father, Jesus is born into Spiritual Omnipresence, is Enthroned, and Rules for all past, present and future, physical time.

This is how Jesus is fully free willed man capable of choosing to sin (yet he did not choose to sin) and fully God, incapable of sin, during the time He walked the earth.

Please visit, Jesus Loves God, to see the scriptures which describe Jesus before and after His eternal birth to the Father at His ressurection. geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/4a.htm

NAB PSALMS 2:4
He who is throned in heaven laughs; the LORD derides them; Then in anger he speaks to them; he terrifies them in his wrath: “I myself have set up my king on Zion, my holy mountain. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: The LORD said to me, 'You are my son; this day I have begotten you. Ask of me and I will give you the nations for an inheritance and the ends of the earth for your possession. You shall rule them with an iron rod: you shall shatter them like an earthen dish.’” NAB ACTS 13:32

“We ourselves announce to you the good news that what God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, in raising up Jesus, according to what is written in the second psalm, You are my son; this day I have begotten you.” **NAB JOHN 3:3 **

Jesus gave him this answer: “I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above.” “How can a man be born again once he is old?” retorted Nicodemus. “Can he return to his mother’s womb and be born over again?” Jesus replied: “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit.NAB 1 PETER 3:18
He was put to death insofar as fleshly existence goes, but was given life in the realm of the spirit.NAB HEBREWS 1:5 Messianic Enthronement.

To which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my son; today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be his father, and he shall be my son”? And again, when he leads his first-born into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him.” NAB PSALMS 89:27

“He shall say of me, ‘You are my father, my God, the Rock, my savior.’ And I will make him the first-born, highest of the kings of the earth.” Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
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ANWK:
Hi Everyone,

i am currently in dialogue with a Protestant friend of mine. try as i might, i cannot seem to convince him that Jesus is both man and God while on earth.
Your friend is falling into heresy.

He is denying the Incarnation. Do a web search, have HIM do a web search of “Incarnation”.

Immanuel = God with us.

Ask your friend "When was Jesus God, and when was Jesus NOT God?

Does your friend say Jesus is Eternal God at any point? How can Jesus be Eternal God at some point and not Etrnal God at another point? What is your friend’s definition of 'Eternal"?
 
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