Jesus' sacrifice retroactively

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I’m not sure if this is the correct category, but my question is to do with Jesus, his sacrifice on the cross, and how, for example, we believe it preserved Mary from original sin, was connected to the last supper, and exists outside of time (as we continue to participate in the same sacrifice each mass).
My question then, is why was heaven impossible to get to before the death of Jesus, and why did he have to descend to hell to free those souls, if the sacrifice already existed outside of time? Or, have I just misinterpreted something?

Thanks,
Matt
 
It sounds like you are interested in how God chooses to apply the graces of redemption.

Obviously, God could have chosen to save us all sorts of ways.

But for reasons we do not fully understand, but which seem to be rooted in love and justice, He chose to die and rise for us, and then to apply His grace both to those who were already dead and to those who were still alive, as well as to those who would live from them on.

In a few cases, He used His eternal state to apply graces in a way that seems retroactive to us, but apparently not in all cases.

The main reason seems to be God revealing His actions to us. If His saving graces were just randomly applied to everyone throughout human history, before the Crucifixion happened – we would have no way to understand Jesus’ Incarnation, Passion and Death, and Resurrection. God comes from outside time and space, but humans need obvious chains of cause and effect.

And since God created time, matter, and the whole cause and effect thing, He obviously likes it and likes to work through it. So there may also be reasons of artistry and logical elegance.
 
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My question then, is why was heaven impossible to get to before the death of Jesus, and why did he have to descend to hell to free those souls, if the sacrifice already existed outside of time?
According to the Tanakh, the prophet Elijah was assumed into heaven, and he obviously predated Jesus.

IMO, the concept of “Jesus died for our sins” is more likely a “theological construct” that need not be taken literally but has much meaning and implications symbolically as his being “the final sacrifice” that replaced animal/grain sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins.

However, just note that I am of the lunatic left-wing element of Catholicism, so probably most here at CAF are likely to disagree with my leanings on this.
 
we continue to participate in the same sacrifice each mass
We really don’t. We re-present the sacrifice of Jesus to the Father. We don’t participate in his death on the cross, though, per se.
why was heaven impossible to get to before the death of Jesus
Because we exist in time.
why did he have to descend to hell to free those souls, if the sacrifice already existed outside of time? Or, have I just misinterpreted something?
Right – it’s because the sacrifice didn’t "exist outside of time. It happened for real, in the context of our universe, and therefore, in time.
IMO, the concept of “Jesus died for our sins” is more likely a “theological construct” that need not be taken literally
🤦‍♂️
I am of the lunatic left-wing element of Catholicism, so probably most here at CAF are likely to disagree with my leanings on this.
Yes. 😉
his being “the final sacrifice” that replaced animal/grain sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins.
The sacrifice of Jesus doesn’t forgive sins, though. It makes salvation possible, but it doesn’t – on its own accord and by itself – forgive sin. The animal/grain sacrifices themselves didn’t bring forgiveness of sin!
 
If you want to be sarcastic, then you’ll not see me responding back. Demeaning others is simply not moral, imo.
 
My response would be that Heaven wasn’t impossible to get to before, it was impossible to get to without. That does mean that the state of ‘being able to get to Heaven’ existed/exists for all time, but it also means that the state of ‘not being able to get to Heaven’ also existed. Even though one didn’t chronologically follow the other, Christ still needed to descend to hell to free everyone from the not.
 
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Is there a difference between sanctification and entering Heaven? Mary, for example, was sanctified, but did not enter Heaven until Christ died and rose. Many people in the Old Testament were sanctified by faith for example:

St. Augustine
For it was through this same faith in Christ, who was to come in the flesh, and was to die for us, and on the third day (which coming after the seventh or Sabbath day, was to be the eighth) to rise again, that even holy men were saved of old. For He was delivered for our offenses, and raised again for our justification. Romans 4:25 Ever since circumcision was instituted among the people of God, which was at that time the sign of the righteousness of faith, it availed also to signify the cleansing even in infants of the original and primitive sin, just as baptism in like manner from the time of its institution began to be of avail for the renewal of man. Not that there was no justification by faith before circumcision; for even when he was still in uncircumcision, Abraham was himself justified by faith, being the father of those nations which should also imitate his faith. Romans 4:10-11 In former times, however, the sacramental mystery of justification by faith lay concealed in every mode. Still it was the self-same faith in the Mediator which saved the saints of old, both small and great — not the old covenant, which genders to bondage; Galatians 4:24 not the law, which was not so given as to be able to give life; Galatians 3:21 but the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 7:25 For as we believe that Christ has come in the flesh, so they believed that He was to come; as, again, we believe that He has died, so they believed that He would die; and as we believe that He has risen from the dead, so they believed that He would rise again; while both we and they believe alike, that He will hereafter come to judge the quick and the dead. Let not this man, then, throw any hindrance in the way of its salvation upon human nature, by setting up a bad defense of its merits; because we are all born under sin, and are delivered therefrom by the only One who was born without sin.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15072.htm
 
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If you want to be sarcastic, then you’ll not see me responding back. Demeaning others is simply not moral, imo.
Who am I demeaning? On the other hand, I am responding to the reasonableness of your assertions: no, “Jesus died for our sins” isn’t merely a “theological construct”; yes, most at CAF are likely to disagree with you on that point; no, the sacrifice of Jesus doesn’t forgive sins, per se, on its own.

If you want to avoid discussion of those assertions, then… 🤷‍♂️
 
Head-butting is not my thing, so there’s no future in any discussion together.
 
When someone posts icons like a face-palm , they’re doing something that intends to demean the “other”, which really is a form of “bullying”. A responsible parent tells their children not to bully or make fun of people, but some unfortunately forget that basic Judeo-Christian and Catholic teaching.

Thus, I avoid people here and in “real life” (not just here at CAF) who do that, regardless as to whether their positions are spot-on or not. We all do make mistakes at time, and I’ve made more than my fair share, but intentionally making fun of someone is not moral by basic Catholic teachings.

Anyhow, moving on…
 
I’m not sure if this is the correct category, but my question is to do with Jesus, his sacrifice on the cross, and how, for example, we believe it preserved Mary from original sin, was connected to the last supper, and exists outside of time (as we continue to participate in the same sacrifice each mass).
My question then, is why was heaven impossible to get to before the death of Jesus, and why did he have to descend to hell to free those souls, if the sacrifice already existed outside of time? Or, have I just misinterpreted something?
Since we know that what’s gone done is Correct…
by default you’ve misinterpreted something.

Your Mistake? Connects with " exists outside of time "

This Universe exists “in time”
 
Elijah was assumed into heaven but exactly when is unclear in the scriptures. The existence of “sheol” prior to judgement implies penalty or reward, and the latter was believed to be “heaven” even before Jesus’ time.

Point is that we should not assume that one had to accept Jesus in order for God to judge them as being righteous, thus at least being candidates for heaven.
 
Point is that we should not assume that one had to accept Jesus in order for God to judge them as being righteous, thus at least being candidates for heaven.
Disagree…

God has been written into the hearts of all…

Even if some never heard of, or, even oppose Jesus / Truth – as Messiah of all,
In one manner or another including unKnowingly -
we shall all be Judged in accordance to how we Obey the Command of God

_
 
I simply am not willing to judge, and Jesus said “judge ye not…”, so I don’t.
 
When someone posts icons like a face-palm , they’re doing something that intends to demean the “other”, which really is a form of “bullying”.
So, now you’re an expert on what others are thinking and intending? 🤔

I would be ok with something like “when someone responds to me and uses an emoji, it makes me feel like they’re trying to demean me, and I feel bullied.” That would make sense. However, to make the blanket statement “emojis == bullying” is nothing more than you projecting your personal ideas onto others. (Now, I could finish by saying, “so… whatever, man” but a ‘shrug’ seems to fit better, so… 🤷‍♂️)

Hope you don’t find that ‘shrug’ demeaning. 😉
 
preserved Mary from original sin
The Immaculate Conception is the saving grace given to Mary in anticipation of the redemption with God’s foreknowledge of Mary’s acceptance of His Will for her.
 
So, now you’re an expert on what others are thinking and intending? 🤔
So now you are?

Back to the OP … Jesus’ Teachings, Miracles, Sacrifice and Resurrection…
Ushered in an Explosive New Religion throughout the World…
Which continues to the very day in 2019 Anno Domini.
 
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