Jesus' suffering and our own in purgatory

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Hey all,

I’ve been enjoying reading up on many questions I have on the on the forums and I am pretty new to them. A Lutheran friend of mine said that Jesus’ punishment is nullified if we are still going to be punished in purgatory. He mentioned that the Blood of Jesus is what purifies us, as in I’m sure 1 John 1:7. I have before heard that Jesus’ suffering is for our guilt for our sin, and we have to do penance ourselves for them, in this life or the next.

Does anyone have a better explanation? Is it accurate to say that Jesus’ suffering made it possible for us to be forgiven?

This was the most helpful thread already but it didn’t quite answer my question.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=714972

Thank you, people of much knowledge.
 
Tony11 said:
A Lutheran friend of mine said that Jesus’ punishment is nullified if we are still going to be punished in purgatory.
Click to expand...
Nonsense 🙂

While I recommend reading this outstanding article to understand solid Christian doctrine as well as to get acquainted with the errors and heresies (since protestants often think they were the first ones to come up with certain arguments, which is almost never true), I’ll throw in a few ideas.

The staunchest defense of the doctrine of purgatory is found in II Maccabees 12:44-46 where prayers are offered for the dead (and even a collection is taken up to pay for a temple service). Many non-Catholics, however, will reject this Scripture because they do not think it is canon - though it is.

II Maccabees is not the only book of the Bible that supports the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. It is made very clear in multiple verses that we are to be perfect in order to get into Heaven – Jesus tells us to be perfect in Matthew 5:48, and Hebrews 12:14 and Revelation 21:27 make it clear that “nothing unclean shall enter Heaven”. James 3:2 makes it clear that we have all sinned, and so that we cannot be considered “perfect”. How, therefore, can we ever see Heaven?

I John 5:16-17 distinguishes between mortal and venial sin, and James 1:14-15 says that “mature” sin leads to death. But what about the sins which do not cause death? Or sins which are forgiven? How are we to be made perfect in order to enter Heaven if we have these lesser sins on our souls?

II Samuel makes it clear that David was punished for sin even though he had been forgiven – a temporal punishment remained which had to be paid. Matthew 5:26 describes how people will not be released “until they have paid the last penny”, and in Matthew 12:36 people will account for every idle word on judgment day. Does “account” mean that it will simply be looked at, we will be judged to be imperfect, but let into Heaven anyway?

I Corinthians 3:15 answers this very clearly for us – this says that we will suffer loss (of our sinfulness) but we will be saved – as through fire. This is purgatory – the idea that our sinfulness will be burnt away and we will be made pure.

Matthew 12:32 says that sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the next; what is this next age where sins can be forgiven? Sins are not forgiven in Hell, and do not need to be forgiven in Heaven (as everyone there is perfect) – so there must be a third place where sins can be forgiven. Obviously, a sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven as it is so serious – it is clearly a mortal sin.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 the rich man has compassion for his brothers and is in a place of torment; there is no torment in Heaven and there is no compassion in Hell. This man must be in purgatory.

Finally, we see that Paul prays for his dead friend in II Timothy 1:16-18 – why would he pray for him if he were in Heaven or Hell? What good would his prayers do? His prayers only make sense if there is purgatory.
 
Theoretically, we could say all we do about purgatory, and that since we ourselves do penance for our sins in this age or the next, that we are paying for our sins ourselves and Jesus did not need to suffer. This is more of what I’m asking, as I’m already familiar with why we have purgatory.

It’s strange to put into words. Can we say that we don’t receive a physical suffering we deserve for our sins, because Jesus took that suffering for us? And because He did that, we can be forgiven and do penance that is not as much a painful suffering? This seems reasonable, considering that we would experience a painful suffering in purgatory for the sins we have not done penance for.

It is a question of what does Jesus’ suffering pay for? None of the arguments I saw really talk about it.
 
Tony11 said:
Theoretically, we could say all we do about purgatory, and that since we ourselves do penance for our sins in this age or the next, that we are paying for our sins ourselves and Jesus did not need to suffer. This is more of what I’m asking, as I’m already familiar with why we have purgatory.

It’s strange to put into words. Can we say that we don’t receive a physical suffering we deserve for our sins, because Jesus took that suffering for us? And because He did that, we can be forgiven and do penance that is not as much a painful suffering? This seems reasonable, considering that we would experience a painful suffering in purgatory for the sins we have not done penance for.

It is a question of what does Jesus’ suffering pay for? None of the arguments I saw really talk about it.
Click to expand...
Jesus suffering and death paid for our sin. It gave the ultimate act of obedience by one who in no way deserved punishment at all. It assuaged the wrath of the Father on sinners, and opened up the great ocean of Mercy that Blessed Faustina Kowalska tried to proclaim to the Church at the insistence of our Lord.

That being said, even after removing the anger of God for these committed sins, there remains on our souls the scars that were incurred by these sins. These must be removed as well. We are empowered to remove these scars ourselves by penance and sanctification, but the Church has also the ability to share the sufferings we may undergo in the removal of these scars, by prayer and indulgences.

peace
steve
 
Tony11 said:
Hey all,

I’ve been enjoying reading up on many questions I have on the on the forums and I am pretty new to them. A Lutheran friend of mine said that Jesus’ punishment is nullified if we are still going to be punished in purgatory. He mentioned that the Blood of Jesus is what purifies us, as in I’m sure 1 John 1:7. I have before heard that Jesus’ suffering is for our guilt for our sin, and we have to do penance ourselves for them, in this life or the next.

Does anyone have a better explanation? Is it accurate to say that Jesus’ suffering made it possible for us to be forgiven?

This was the most helpful thread already but it didn’t quite answer my question.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=714972

Thank you, people of much knowledge.
Click to expand...
By what power does your friend believe purgatory occurs if not Christ’s? He is not arguing against the Catholic idea of purgatory, which is an extension of sanctification, which even a Lutheran should believe. Take for instance Hebrews 12:7-10. In that passage, those who are already God’s children are chastised for what purpose––their holiness! Does your friend think the inspired author of Hebrews is nullifying Christ’s punishment just because even those who are already God’s need sanctification? Of course not. I must also shamelessly plug 😉 my post What is Purgatory? because it has many Church docs and references so that one actually understands what purgatory is. It sounds like your friend has some misconceptions.
 
thenobes said:
Jesus suffering and death paid for our sin. It gave the ultimate act of obedience by one who in no way deserved punishment at all. It assuaged the wrath of the Father on sinners, and opened up the great ocean of Mercy that Blessed Faustina Kowalska tried to proclaim to the Church at the insistence of our Lord.

That being said, even after removing the anger of God for these committed sins, there remains on our souls the scars that were incurred by these sins. These must be removed as well. We are empowered to remove these scars ourselves by penance and sanctification, but the Church has also the ability to share the sufferings we may undergo in the removal of these scars, by prayer and indulgences.

peace
steve
Click to expand...
Thanks Steve, this looks like the answer I’m looking for.
 
thenobes said:
Jesus suffering and death paid for our sin. It gave the ultimate act of obedience by one who in no way deserved punishment at all. It assuaged the wrath of the Father on sinners, and opened up the great ocean of Mercy that Blessed Faustina Kowalska tried to proclaim to the Church at the insistence of our Lord.

That being said, even after removing the anger of God for these committed sins, there remains on our souls the scars that were incurred by these sins. These must be removed as well. We are empowered to remove these scars ourselves by penance and sanctification, but the Church has also the ability to share the sufferings we may undergo in the removal of these scars, by prayer and indulgences.

peace
steve
Click to expand...
I have heard that the state one enters in when one is in purgatory is that of shame. Literally, it’s by our own choice that we enter into purgatory. Our spirit burns, because we are unworthy of entering into Heaven in the presence of God and the saints and angels. So it’s not that God makes you go to purgatory, your soul itself wants to go there to purify. That makes sense, because don’t we want to be the absolute best when we meet God?
 
R_C said:
Nonsense 🙂

While I recommend reading this outstanding article to understand solid Christian doctrine as well as to get acquainted with the errors and heresies (since protestants often think they were the first ones to come up with certain arguments, which is almost never true), I’ll throw in a few ideas.

The staunchest defense of the doctrine of purgatory is found in II Maccabees 12:44-46 where prayers are offered for the dead (and even a collection is taken up to pay for a temple service). Many non-Catholics, however, will reject this Scripture because they do not think it is canon - though it is.

II Maccabees is not the only book of the Bible that supports the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. It is made very clear in multiple verses that we are to be perfect in order to get into Heaven – Jesus tells us to be perfect in Matthew 5:48, and Hebrews 12:14 and Revelation 21:27 make it clear that “nothing unclean shall enter Heaven”. James 3:2 makes it clear that we have all sinned, and so that we cannot be considered “perfect”. How, therefore, can we ever see Heaven?

I John 5:16-17 distinguishes between mortal and venial sin, and James 1:14-15 says that “mature” sin leads to death. But what about the sins which do not cause death? Or sins which are forgiven? How are we to be made perfect in order to enter Heaven if we have these lesser sins on our souls?

II Samuel makes it clear that David was punished for sin even though he had been forgiven – a temporal punishment remained which had to be paid. Matthew 5:26 describes how people will not be released “until they have paid the last penny”, and in Matthew 12:36 people will account for every idle word on judgment day. Does “account” mean that it will simply be looked at, we will be judged to be imperfect, but let into Heaven anyway?

I Corinthians 3:15 answers this very clearly for us – this says that we will suffer loss (of our sinfulness) but we will be saved – as through fire. This is purgatory – the idea that our sinfulness will be burnt away and we will be made pure.

Matthew 12:32 says that sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the next; what is this next age where sins can be forgiven? Sins are not forgiven in Hell, and do not need to be forgiven in Heaven (as everyone there is perfect) – so there must be a third place where sins can be forgiven. Obviously, a sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven as it is so serious – it is clearly a mortal sin.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 the rich man has compassion for his brothers and is in a place of torment; there is no torment in Heaven and there is no compassion in Hell. This man must be in purgatory.

Finally, we see that Paul prays for his dead friend in II Timothy 1:16-18 – why would he pray for him if he were in Heaven or Hell? What good would his prayers do? His prayers only make sense if there is purgatory.
Click to expand...
This is the mos direct, succinct explanation of purgatory that I have come across. As a relatively new Catholic, I thank you for this.
 
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