Jesus without the Bible?

[Verita]

The bolded statement is saying that knowing Scriptures will make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus. Paul does not say knowing Scriptures plus other things.

Yes, but the Holy Scriptures he is referring to are the Old Testament. This is obvious since Timothy couldn’t possibly have known any New Testament writings since his childhood. So by your own logic all you should need to make you wise for salvation is the Old Testament.

 

[rtconstant]

The thing is though Sim that the scriptures you’re using are actually saying that scripture is not sufficient. It is saying that they are good for proving the belief through faith. In other words the person must already be aware of Jesus and His teachings.

As Mo3 brings up no one would ever come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the OT scriptures without some sort of structure by which to understand it. While His message and sacrifice can be seen in the OT, one really needs to know too look first.

Look at St. Paul. This was a man that was completely absorbed into sacred scripture. He was also pious, moral and possessed a great love for God. Yet even he had to be knocked off of his horse and struck blind, audibly hear the voice of God, then had to find a Christian and finally have the scales removed from his eyes before he got it. How much more do we need?

 

[simbagizmo]

I do not quite understand what you are saying here. So please forgive my comments if they do not address your thoughts.

Since our old testament is the Scripture they were talking about, ***we ***can forget completely about Christianity, it did not exist in the OT. We may as well become sort of pseudo-jewish and continue to wait for the messiah as that would be sufficient.

My first question is what is you definition of Christian? To me, it is belief in Jesus Christ and putting Him first and foremost in your life. To live to do God’s will instead of our own. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, John 1:1. When Jesus stated that the entire Old Testament is about Him, I would say that Christians did exist in the Old Testament, though the actual word was not coined until after Christs death.

Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Joh 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Joh 5:46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

Instead we have to obey this pesky Church that The Messiah built which cannot be destroyed because the very lips of God said - nothing would ever prevail against it.

I do not understand what you are saying here, but Jesus says we have to receive accept His words.

John 12
47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Which begs the question why christians only appeared on earth one thousand five hundred, (1,500 years), after Christ built His Church and made His promise to It.

As I stated above, there were believers in the Old Testament as Jesus says it was written about Him.

And if Gods promise were actually true, and there were christians on earth for the previous 1,500 years, then they in fact are the actual Church Christ said that He would build. And it is to Them that He gave His promise of the Holy Spirit as a guide to all Truth and to them His own promise that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against It.

Again, I apologize that I do not follow your statement here

It is to the Church Christ founded 2000 yrs ago that He gave His personal promise that It would last 'til the end of time.
Which also means that all the Sacraments are administered by that Church for the last 2000 years under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the protection of Christ until ‘the end of Time’.

The promises Jesus gave was to all those that believe in Him. And those that believe in HIm is the Body of His Church. The Holy Spirit guides each individual believer.

Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[simbagizmo]

Yes, but the Holy Scriptures he is referring to are the Old Testament. This is obvious since Timothy couldn’t possibly have known any New Testament writings since his childhood. So by your own logic all you should need to make you wise for salvation is the Old Testament.

This is not my logic, but God’s Word.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

And all believers have the Spirit of truth in them to discern truth.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

No one can discern truth by themselves. Without the Spirit of Truth in them, it is useless. What I am saying is that Scriptures do state that Scriptures are sufficient.

 

[simbagizmo]

The thing is though Sim that the scriptures you’re using are actually saying that scripture is not sufficient. It is saying that they are good for proving the belief through faith. In other words the person must already be aware of Jesus and His teachings.

I am sorry to disagree, but it states Scriptures are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 then states that Scripture is also good for reproof, doctrine, correction, and instruction.

As Mo3 brings up no one would ever come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the OT scriptures without some sort of structure by which to understand it. While His message and sacrifice can be seen in the OT, one really needs to know too look first.

Look at St. Paul. This was a man that was completely absorbed into sacred scripture. He was also pious, moral and possessed a great love for God. Yet even he had to be knocked off of his horse and struck blind, audibly hear the voice of God, then had to find a Christian and finally have the scales removed from his eyes before he got it. How much more do we need?

One has to answer Jesus Christ call and accept His free gift to have saving Faith in Him. I will say this again, that I am in no way saying that teaching from other Christians are not helpful. This is a reason Jesus established His Church, to encourage, teach, and discipline us in the faith. What I am saying is that Scriptures alone are sufficient to come to saving faith.

 

[simbagizmo]

It is also not saying it is the “Only” thing either.

All I was responding to was a comment that Scriptures does not say that it is sufficient. And 2 Timothy 3:15 does state that Scriptures are sufficient.

It is also saying “through faith” which one must learn the definition of faith through the teachings of Jesus, not the English dictionary.
What does Scripture say about Scripture being sufficient?
“Now I praise you brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ORDINANCES (The Greek text says, ‘keep the TRADITIONS’), as I delivered them to you.” —1Cor 11:2
“And the things that thou hast HEARD of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” — 2 Tim. 2:2
“By which ye are saved, if ye keep in MEMORY what I PREACHED (verbal teaching not written) to you, unless ye have believed in vain.” —1Cor 15:2. NOTE Faith then cometh by hearing, not reading.

“Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say: Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the whole world.” —Rom. 10:17-18 . “If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immovable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister.”----Col. 1:23. “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book …” — John 20"30:

Can you give me the name of 1 human being, in the history of mankind, who has used “Scripture alone” to learn how to be saved? This person must have never heard or learned anything about salvation from someone else, like a parent, preacher, friend, a bible translator, a bible scholar, etc?

Please think about this because the only conclusion is “No”. If there has never been 1 person to learn all they need to know from reading Scripture, then how can Scripture be totally sufficient?

Please, I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying that teachings of Scripture by other Christians are not profitable, helpful, or needed. What I am saying is that Scriptures is sufficient as the source of all teachings.

 

[I_Leatherman]

I do not quite understand what you are saying here. So please forgive my comments if they do not address your thoughts.

OK.

My first question is what is you definition of Christian? To me, it is belief in Jesus Christ… … I would say that Christians did exist in the Old Testament, though the actual word was not coined until after Christs death.

Hmmm… if your point was that Scripture is sufficient, then logically you do not need to believe in anything outside of the OT, including the messiah - whom the jews reject - based on their belief in the same OT Scriptures.

Believing in Jesus Christ is ex-Scripture, His name is nowhere mentioned and His actions are revolutionary to the original believers thoughts on OT Scripture.

Quote:
Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke… …wrote about Me.

As I’m saying none of this is Scripture according to your strict interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Leatherman
Instead we have to obey the Church that The Messiah built…

I do not understand what you are saying here, but Jesus says we have to receive accept His words.

Don’t understand - ‘recieve accept His words’.
Don’t know who you are or what you believe, (your religion is N/A in profile but assuming you are non-Catholic),
He did say in 33 AD that He built His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it - ever, ever, … ever.
So presumably whatever christians believed in the beginning was no accident or mistake, and those true beliefs would continue forever.

Quote:
John 12
47
48

um…yes, but this is not Scripture according to you - it is ex-OT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Leatherman
Which begs the question why christians only appeared on earth one thousand five hundred, (1,500 years), after Christ built His Church and made His promise to It.

As I stated above, there were believers in the Old Testament as Jesus says it was written about Him.

Jesus is not mentioned in OT Scriptures.
The OT could have been talking about anyone, or many anyones.

As I say, He founded a single Church in 33AD.
He promised to give that Church a Guide - from Him.
He promised that same Church would last until the end of time.

So…

which church do we follow?, the same Church He founded - it must still be here because God Himself promised it would remain in this world until the end of time.
or,
do we follow a church founded in 1970 which teaches doctrines contrary to the doctrines of His church. or, do we follow a movement 500 years old which identifies itself as ’ a movement in opposition to the Church Christ founded in 33AD’. ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Leatherman
And if Gods promise were actually true, and there were christians on earth for the previous 1,500 years, then they in fact are the actual Church Christ said that He would build. And it is to Them that He gave His promise of the Holy Spirit as a guide to all Truth and to them His own promise that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against It.

Again, I apologize that I do not follow your statement here

Thats OK.
Its just my silly idea that Christ said He founded one Church and sent His Holy Spirit into it to guide it to all truth, until the end of Time- and so, logically, the early christian doctrines and sacraments are true and necessary today - as the Churches continuous existance and growth for 2000 years also, in itself, ratifies its Sacraments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Leatherman
It is to the Church Christ founded 2000 yrs ago that He gave His personal promise that It would last 'til the end of time.
Which also means that all the Sacraments are administered by that Church for the last 2000 years under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the protection of Christ until ‘the end of Time’.

The promises Jesus gave was to all those that believe in Him. And those that believe in HIm is the Body of His Church. The Holy Spirit guides each individual believer.

Actually, I think He said All those who believe in Him and keep His Commands, - those Commands being all those things He taught the Apostles, that the Apostles transmitted to the early Church - and which the Church preserved - and which now constitute the Dogmas and Doctrines of the same Catholic Church.

Quote:
Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Horayy! Open the door fully to all His doctrines - I could hardly let Him half-way in the door.

 

[simbagizmo]

OK.

Hmmm… if your point was that Scripture is sufficient

Once again, this is not my point. This is God’s Word, 2 Timothy 3:15

, then logically you do not need to believe in anything outside of the OT, including the messiah - whom the jews reject - based on their belief in the same OT Scriptures.

If Jesus is telling the truth about the Old Testament, I do not understand this comment.

John 5
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
41 "I do not receive glory from men;
42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
43 "I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Believing in Jesus Christ is ex-Scripture, His name is nowhere mentioned and His actions are revolutionary to the original believers thoughts on OT Scripture.

I am really not making these passages up, and I would refer to my comments above as far as the ex-Scripture thing. Jesus’s ideas were revolutionary because the Jews church leaders replaced the traditions of God with their own traditions. It is not because Scripture was not teaching them. Again I will refer to the John 5 passage above for this.

Mat 15:3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Mat 15:8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mat 15:9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’"

As for the rest of your post, I believe you are misunderstanding my comments and beliefs. I believe the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments are God’s Word. I believe that today, both Old and New Testaments are the complete Words of God. I believe that All Scripture, Old and New are sufficient as Paul stated. I believe all Scripture, Old and New, are profitable as Paul stated. I believe that those who believe in Jesus Christ as He has stated in the Gospels is salvation. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding about me.

This kind of took an ugly turn when I quoted 2 Timothy 3:15 as stating that there is a verse in Scripture that states that Scripture is sufficient for wisdom unto salvation. Then made an observation that this was said at a time when Scripture only consisted of the Old Testament. That was it. If you want to discuss 2 Timothy 3:15 or if the Old Testament was about Jesus, I will be happy to listen and learn. But I would appreciate this to be a constructive discussion without the sarcastic and angry tone.

 

[rtconstant]

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Again I have to point out that this verse says “through” faith. So again what you’re saying is correct if one has faith. The faith must be there in order for the scriptures to reveal their power. In order for the faith to be there one must already have a certain level of understanding.

We cannot just pick the parts of the Bible that appeals to us. This verse tells us we need faith for understanding. The Bible also tells us that we need a preacher:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom. 10:14

The Bible also tells us that those who want to understand the scriptures need to be instructed:

30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31"How can I," he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”[e]

34The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

Also again I have to make additional reference to Paul’s conversion process wherein he was converted and instructed and then realized the presense of Christ in the OT.

Besides the fact that the Bible does not to be sufficient. The Bible points repeatedly at the fact that actual instruction and praching is required. No one in the Bible converted because of the scriptures. They did however convert because of instruction, teaching and preaching.

Then we have to deal with a logical problem that whether or not scriptures could be sufficient for the first at least 1800 years most people were illiterate and therefore would still be better served by instruction. The Church has had the teachings by which ALL men could be saved. In fact it is the Church’s teaching and morals passed down to her by Jesus Christ that converted the nations.

Even when literacy became more wide spread and the printing press alowed for Bibles to be more widely distributed. It was released into a world that had been within the Body of Christ for over a thousand years. The reformers were Christian to begin with when they started the concept of Sola-Scriptura.

In short we have no situation either scriptural or historical where that the OT on its own spawned faith in Christ.

 

[simbagizmo]

Again I have to point out that this verse says “through” faith. So again what you’re saying is correct if one has faith. The faith must be there in order for the scriptures to reveal their power. In order for the faith to be there one must already have a certain level of understanding.

We cannot just pick the parts of the Bible that appeals to us. This verse tells us we need faith for understanding. The Bible also tells us that we need a preacher:

The Bible also tells us that those who want to understand the scriptures need to be instructed:

Also again I have to make additional reference to Paul’s conversion process wherein he was converted and instructed and then realized the presense of Christ in the OT.

Besides the fact that the Bible does not to be sufficient. The Bible points repeatedly at the fact that actual instruction and praching is required. No one in the Bible converted because of the scriptures. They did however convert because of instruction, teaching and preaching.

Then we have to deal with a logical problem that whether or not scriptures could be sufficient for the first at least 1800 years most people were illiterate and therefore would still be better served by instruction. The Church has had the teachings by which ALL men could be saved. In fact it is the Church’s teaching and morals passed down to her by Jesus Christ that converted the nations.

Even when literacy became more wide spread and the printing press alowed for Bibles to be more widely distributed. It was released into a world that had been within the Body of Christ for over a thousand years. The reformers were Christian to begin with when they started the concept of Sola-Scriptura.

In short we have no situation either scriptural or historical where that the OT on its own spawned faith in Christ.

I really think we are saying the same thing here and I would say that I am in total agreement with what you have said here. My point about Scripture being sufficient for salvation, is just that. The teachings in the Scripture is sufficient for salvation. I do believe that the Holy Spirit is in each Christian and will give discernment of truth when it is pursued. Jesus will put people in our lives to help us in the teachings. My original point in this thread was the following:

Without the Bible, God’s unchanging and inerrrant Word, how would you guard against false teaching within the Christian Church?

I was speaking about how all teachings must be supported by Scripture and Scripture alone. And that the Holy Spirit will give all Christians discernment to judge truth in teachings. Somehow we kind of moved from my original point in the post, maybe it was my fault, but I would like to bring it back to my original point.