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Jesus' words: Father, forgive them, for they no not what they do"--in regard to unrepentant sinners
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Do you disregard Luke 17:3-4?AS!
talk to your priest
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clem456
Guest
Read the catechism above.
I’ve said all I wish to say. There is a mountain of Scripture and Tradition that disagrees with your conception of forgiveness.
You are cherry picking scripture and going out on a limb where there are very few people. Catholics do not interpret scripture by one word taken waaaay out of context with the rest of scripture.
Read the Gospels.
Read the catechism.
IF that doesn’t suffice, talk to your pastor.
prolly should do that first.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
So Luke 17:3-4 is trumped by YOUR understanding of Scripture?
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clem456
Guest
Catholics are not fundamentalists.
I am well aware of what it says in Luke. This is the second time you suggest that I disrespect Scripture.
GO SEE YOUR PASTOR.
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guanophore
Guest
He never says “only if he repents”.
That means we can also forgive when they don’t repent.
The command is that we must forgive if they repent, not that we must wait until they repent to forgive.
You seem to be looking for justification to hang on to resentments. Holding resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
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guanophore
Guest
I urge you to read the passages from the Catechism posted in # 78.
There is no “trumping” here, unless it is yourself, trying to trump all the other Scriptures on forgiveness and the Catechism with your little “if”.
When a person fights this hard on a subject, and claims to be Catholic yet rejects the Catechism, there is usually an important reason.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
I don’t reject the Catechism. I only uphold what Jesus said, “If.”
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
I have found when I have forgiven the unrepentant, then I have experienced a profound sense of peace that is beyond my understanding. Philippians 4 seems to sum it up well.
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable – if anything is excellent or praiseworthy – think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me – put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
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guanophore
Guest
Thanks for this post, and these quotes. You are right that forgiveness does free us and allows us to focus on the good.
Jesus forgave us before we repented of our sins, how can we not forgive our trespassors in the same way?
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powerofk
Guest
Here’s the thing with forgiveness - if we don’t forgive others in our hearts before we know that they have repented, then it’ll be extremely difficult to be open to offer forgiveness to them if they come to us asking for it.
See, there’s internal forgiveness - the decision, made out of love, that you are not going to remain angry with someone over something that that person did to you (or something that you thought that person did to you). You can internally forgive someone without that person being repentant. It is this type of forgiveness that the father of the prodigal son had done pretty much as soon as the prodigal son left.
And then, there is external forgiveness. External forgiveness, though it flows from internal forgiveness, often is only possible if the person who wronged you repents and asks for it. At the very least, you need to have contact with the person who wronged you. The reason for external forgiveness to usually require repentance from the person who wronged you is that he/she needs to be willing to accept the forgiveness being given to him/her.
See, there’s internal forgiveness - the decision, made out of love, that you are not going to remain angry with someone over something that that person did to you (or something that you thought that person did to you). You can internally forgive someone without that person being repentant. It is this type of forgiveness that the father of the prodigal son had done pretty much as soon as the prodigal son left.
And then, there is external forgiveness. External forgiveness, though it flows from internal forgiveness, often is only possible if the person who wronged you repents and asks for it. At the very least, you need to have contact with the person who wronged you. The reason for external forgiveness to usually require repentance from the person who wronged you is that he/she needs to be willing to accept the forgiveness being given to him/her.
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guanophore
Guest
Thanks for this, it is a very important distinction. I don’t see how we can pray the Lord’s prayer, or participate in Eucharist (without leaving our gift on the altar to go reconcile) unless we have done that internal forgiveness. Sometimes the external never comes…for instance a person dies, or becomes incapacitated so that the external part can never happen.
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mommy_k
Guest
Sometimes forgiveness is tricky- and should not be extended unless someone apoligises or asks for forgiveness.
For example-say you had to go to mass on Sunday and there was a family event at the same time, and you missed the event. You explained to then that you had mass beforehand and suggested they move the party time so you could attend and they did not.
The hosts of the event then told you later they forgave you for going to mass and missing the party. Did you really need their forgiveness?
To forgive someone who does not apoligise is sometimes accusatory and assigning guilt to the innocent.
For example-say you had to go to mass on Sunday and there was a family event at the same time, and you missed the event. You explained to then that you had mass beforehand and suggested they move the party time so you could attend and they did not.
The hosts of the event then told you later they forgave you for going to mass and missing the party. Did you really need their forgiveness?
To forgive someone who does not apoligise is sometimes accusatory and assigning guilt to the innocent.
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
I would forgive for my own peace of mind.
The opposite is more often the case, when people are blamed for putting the church before their family. You may not feel you need their forgiveness, but it is probably better to accept it, just my thoughts
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guanophore
Guest
Indeed yes. Jesus knows the destructive power of resentment, so He instructs us to leave our sacrifice at the altar, and first be reconciled to our brother.
If the other person does not repent, reconciliation is limited, but for our part, we can forgive and be at peace with them, so that we can return to the altar.
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