Jesus's Suffering and Death for our Sins

[Kronk]

Hey all, I’ve just kind of been winging it with these three questions, but it has alarmed me quite greatly that I don’t have an answer on them, since they seem so basic. I’m a recent convert and most of my Christian education was very protestantized.

I suppose the easiest one to write down is how Jesus’s death changed our sins. They say “he died for our sins” but Ive never heard it actually explained, so I’ve just kind of been trying to think of what it could mean (eg. Did he die so our sins could be forgiven, did he die so original sin could be forgiven, etc.) but haven’t really got a proper answer yet. I’m very confident though some of you will though!

The other question has to do with a catechism bit, at 568 it says “Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross…” And this kind of struck me, since I’d always thought Christ made a choice to suffer for us, since I thought he could just negate the pain, suffering and death since he’s God? So I wonder if he actually could do that, if he had a choice, what really is going on there.

And the final one is probably one most people have heard as a retort to our faith, “Why can’t God just destroy the sin? Just boom sin gone no need for anything?” Sounds a bit rude of a wording but it’s the best way I can word it to piece together what I’m struggling to understand. So why is sin needed to be forgiven and not just automatically destroyed? Is that something God can do?

Many thanks all, I really appreciate the help.

 

[Dan_Defender]

In obedience to His heavenly Father, Jesus Christ freely offered himself to the Father as a sacrifice for the redemption of all mankind. This redemption has three basic aspects. 1) Because Jesus is God, His sacrificial death on the cross (an outward sign of His perfect obedience) was an action of infinite moral value, and so was pleasing to God. Since it was an offering made in the name of the whole human race, this sacrifice restored mankind to God’s friendship, which had been lost by sin. 2) As an act of perfect obedience which would not have taken place if man had not sinned, Jesus’s death more than compensated for the damage done to the objective moral order by sin, which is disobedience of God’s law. 3) Thus, Jesus’s death on the cross formed the basis for a new covenant between God and man. Man’s part of the covenant consists in the redemptive work of Christ, who acted on behalf of all men. God, in return, has promised to all men an abundance of His grace. Through this grace, if we do not refuse it by sin, we receive a share in God’s own life, and so become His adopted sons and daughters, co-heirs with Christ of eternal glory in heaven.

 

[De_Maria]

I don’t think I can add anything to Dan’s response. But, that never stopped me from trying.

(eg. Did he die so our sins could be forgiven,

Yes.

did he die so original sin could be forgiven,

Yes.

etc.)

Could you elaborate?

but haven’t really got a proper answer yet. I’m very confident though some of you will though!

Well, let’s see if Scripture can give a proper answer.

Hebrews 9:15For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant,

So, here’s one reason. He died for the sins committed by the OT Saints. If you want to know who those are, see Heb 11.

those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance.

He also died so that those who are called, in the NT, may also receive the same inheritance as the OT Saints. See the Parable of the Labourers (Matt 20:1-16).

16 Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive.

This explains why Jesus death was necessary. In order for the Old Testament promises to be enacted, God had to die. In order to die, He had to take a body. He had to come in the flesh.

The other question has to do with a catechism bit, at 568

598

it says “Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross…” And this kind of struck me, since I’d always thought Christ made a choice to suffer for us, since I thought he could just negate the pain, suffering and death since he’s God? So I wonder if he actually could do that, if he had a choice, what really is going on there.

It’s a mystery. Read on:

"He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures"

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.

God could have done it another way, but He didn’t.

And the final one is probably one most people have heard as a retort to our faith, “Why can’t God just destroy the sin? Just boom sin gone no need for anything?” Sounds a bit rude of a wording but it’s the best way I can word it to piece together what I’m struggling to understand. So why is sin needed to be forgiven and not just automatically destroyed? Is that something God can do?

1. I don’t know.
2. But I think He just wanted to show us how much He loves us:

1 John 4:9 In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him.

Many thanks all, I really appreciate the help.

Hope that helps.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I’d always thought Christ made a choice to suffer for us,

If Christ was truly given a choice about his suffering and death, at what point was he given this choice?

Was it at some point after his birth?

Was it at some point before his birth?

Or was it before the creation of the universe began? And this is the only answer that makes sense to me. Did God the Father say something like, if we create the universe, there is the possibility that mankind will do evil, would you be prepared to suffer and die to put things right?

Jesus is God, so he should have been included in the decision to create the universe and life. If Jesus had said no at that point, I don’t believe the universe would have been created.

Just a thought.

 

[OddBird]

“Why can’t God just destroy the sin? Just boom sin gone no need for anything?”

Sin damages the relationship between us and God, between us and others. What has been damaged, particularly in a relationship, needs to be healed and restored, not ignored as if it hadn’t happened - or the relationship will dwindle down and die. On the cross, Christ does what no human being could have done, and offers himself, out of love, as our healing and our redemption, so that our relationship with the Father can be restored. Sin cannot just disappear, because it would not heal us. Forgiveness heals.

 

[JohnR77]

Why can’t God just destroy the sin? Just boom sin gone no need for anything?”

Well , God is All-powerful and He could have made the world that way if He wanted to do so. He freely chose to create this world because this world is somehow better. It is better that Truth matters it is better that Justice also matters. And God could have Redeemed us just by snapping his fingers if He want to. But He chose not to make the world that way. So , the question becomes,
Why is this world even with suffering better than a world we might imagine without suffering ?

John

 

[Shelion]

Jesus is God, so he should have been included in the decision to create the universe and life. If Jesus had said no at that point, I don’t believe the universe would have been created.

Just a thought.

The universe was created through the Word. The beginning of the Gospel of John, I think. The Trinity of Persons is One God - and that God created the Universe.

 

[Shelion]

Welcome home!

I’ll only add a few things to the answers you have already received. First question was very well answered, no need to add anything; second - Jesus showed us how much He loves us. I’m not 100% sure which saint said so, but here’s the phrase that he/she used: (st Therese of Avilla maybe) - “God madly in love with humanity” - Jesus Himself said in the Gospels that the greatest way to show love is to give your life for your friends. Saint Alphosus likes to evoke the image of Jesus Crucified and tortured to explain/show how much Jesus loves us. He gave all His blood for us, all His strength, all His life. Even though one drop of His blood would suffice (so, that’d be when He was circumcised…) - because as He is God, the value of everything He did is infinite.

God is outside time - He made the decision about redemption and how to do it, before time began. Also, there’s so much depth to this, books were written, are being written, and will be written (I have a problem to limit myself here) - on the value of self-sacrifice, and suffering. Since the original sin, people suffered. There is a lot of suffering in the world right now. For anyone suffering from a disease, trauma, tragedy, etc it is an opportunity to liken oneself to Jesus, who suffered greatly, too. Suffering has a great, incredible value, if it is offered in the spirit of obedience to God’s Will, and united with the Passion of Jesus, His torment and His death - to God, offered for the sins of the world etc

I see the third question connected to the second - why choose suffering and death, when God could just about shout from Heaven, hey you all sinners, from now on you’re forgiven - Mother Angelica used similar wording, I hope it’s accurate. Well, it’s complex and there’s mystery involved too - but the Church has answers for that as well.
Jesus is the sacrificial lamb, but He was willing to be one, for love for us, and His Father (they are One, and He said so many times) - when you offend a person, hurt them, IF you are sorry, you want forgiveness, particularly if you love each other. Same way, the person wants to forgive you, but mostly they wait for some apology, or at least some grief, you know what I mean. With God it is similar. God wants to forgive everyone - His mercy and love are infinite, but still He needs repentance. The sinner on the other hand, who sinned horribly is in need of forgiveness, but for that humility is necessary, that is realizing that you actually commited a sin, and offended (and hurt) the Lord. Hardened sinners do not want forgiveness, though they desperately need it to save souls. If you just “destroy” sin, annul it, where is the repentance, the need for humility, the forgiveness and mercy? Would it be logical to just annul sins with so many hardened sinners? And how do we know God loves humility and repentance and then loves to forgive and show mercy? It’s all over the OT and NT.
I hope that was helpful.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Did he die so our sins could be forgiven

Yes, but I also feel there is a deeper and more profound meaning, when you consider the greatest commandments.

Jesus obeyed the command to love God and all his neighbours as he loves himself, he could do nothing greater. But how did Jesus hold out his hands on the cross and love the man with the hammer and nails, as he loves himself?

We know Jesus prayed forgive them Father, but to forgive just means that he did not hold his sins against him. But if Jesus continued to love him as he loves himself, that is a love beyond our understanding.

If we sin, then we are also responsible for holding the hammer and nails. Could it be; that not only can we be forgiven, but that Jesus continues to love us as he loves himself?

To be left with the belief that Jesus died for me, leaves me with the feeling I have to love others in a more profound way.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The universe was created through the Word. The beginning of the Gospel of John, I think. The Trinity of Persons is One God - and that God created the Universe.

Thank you, and we are commanded to be as one, in the same way as Jesus is one with the Father, a profound mystery.