Jewish Covenant: Valid?

[Valke2]

Those who wilfully adhere to Judaism, or to heresy, or to schism, are most certainly damned. The church has, however, proposed an exception in the case of invincible ignorance. It has also suggested that the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using separated Christian churches and ecclesial communities as instruments of salvation. It has clarified this by saying that whatever elements of sanctification which are present in these churches are derived from the fullness of truth present in the Catholic Church.

Neither of these speculations changes Catholic doctrine. The Church will always teach “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”.

I have never heard of anyone unwillfully adhering to Judaism. So What you are really saying is that among others, all jews are damned?

 

[Teflon93]

It must be that I’m dishonest, after all, you can’t be—you’re Catholic. Similies

That’s right—all Catholics are infallibly protected from dishonesty, particularly WHEN QUOTING SCRIPTURE. It is the dishonest who maintain it does not say what it says. Thus Genesis 8, which you cannot respond to, obviously. When Scripture contradicts your tradition, you ignore Scripture. Got it.

Admit it.
God never punished the nations surrounding Israel for failing to keep the sacrificial, and ritual laws, but He did punish them for breaking the moral laws (Lev 18):Leviticus 18:24-25

‘Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled. ‘For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.

Now there’s an interesting reading of the Chosen People and their neighbors!

What were the Egyptians punished for? What were the Babylonians punished for? What were the Philistines punished for?

While you’re at it, you might want to crack that dusty OT of yours and see what Moses was punished for.

I’m not sure what you are asking—God was gracious toward them, and they believed God; salvation has been for eternity by grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone.

Nice try, but your last sentence appears nowhere until the 16th century. The point is that, as Moses and Elijah demonstrate, God does indeed save the righteous who do not know Christ. There are those who dislike Jews so much that they wish to write them out of salvation history altogether. The Catholic Church does not.

Wow, smiley courage on display.

Address what with Mt 19?

Christ specifically told the rich man that to be saved he need keep the commandments. Inconvenient enough for your argument, righteous Jews do indeed keep the commandments. So are they damned or not?

Moreover, the great thinkers on your side try to claim “That was BEFORE the Cross!” Thus Christ the Used Car Salesman: he answers the rich man with a false teaching which he knows will be invalid within a year or two. Of course, when it comes time to read Daniel, the “BEFORE the Cross!” argument is set aside; it’s inconvenient for the Darbyite strain of rapture theology.

Keep repeating, and maybe it will come true. Wow!! !!!

I’m sorry, did Jean Calvin manage to get that particular passage redacted from your butchered Bible? The notion that God loves all men is anathema to the Calvinist, so intent on becoming NeoPharisees.

Is this how you go “toe-to-toe?” Answer a statement with an answer that has nothing to do with the statement? Wow!!!

Since you can’t craft an argument, discussing how your theology was made up out of whole cloth more than a millennium and a half after the Apostolic Age seems a good place to start. After all, the reason you object to Genesis 8 IS due to your adherence to Rapture theology, is it not?
Similies

How pathetically confused you are. The Calvinist asserts that God only saves those whom He chooses to save—which seems to be what you are saying.

And God’s promises to the Jewish people were therefore those of the used car salesmen?

You might want to meet some Jewish people, and perhaps ask yourself whether or not their devotion to God is somehow found more wanting than your own.

Travel a little, Sandusky—you might be shocked to find how many people outside your little group actually strive to please God.

 

[Teflon93]

I have never heard of anyone unwillfully adhering to Judaism. So What you are really saying is that among others, all jews are damned?

I don’t know where such certitude comes from. We inherited so much from the Jews in our moral laws that they certainly have more of the fullness of truth than other communities, and Christ has clearly indicated they are part of salvation history.

As quoted, repeatedly and to no affect whatsoever as I can see, the Catholic Church’s teaching, as reflected in the Catechism, reflects this and does NOT say “all Jews are damned”. Neither does it say, “All Catholics are saved”. Either would be a foolish attempt to bind God. WE are bound by the sacraments; they do not bind God. Those who due to invincible ignorance are not called to the sacraments are at God’s mercy; so are we all.

As for the Calvinists, please publish the list of the Elect so those who are not on it may have their Sundays back.

 

[sandusky]

Teflon93:

That’s right—all Catholics are infallibly protected from dishonesty, particularly WHEN QUOTING SCRIPTURE.

Unbelievable…

Teflon93:

It is the dishonest who maintain it does not say what it says. Thus Genesis 8, which you cannot respond to, obviously. When Scripture contradicts your tradition, you ignore Scripture. Got it.

Unbelievable…

What is the point of the following statements?**Genesis 8:13ff

13 Now it came about in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the water was dried up from the earth. Then Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the surface of the ground was dried up.

21 The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

9:11 11 “I establish My covenant with you; and *all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.”***And what’s being said in this verse:**John 6:54

“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.**And this verse, what does it mean:**1 John 5:13

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.**

Teflon93:

What were the Egyptians punished for? What were the Babylonians punished for? What were the Philistines punished for?

For violating the moral law of God; as I told you before; what’s the difficulty you’re having?

Teflon93:

Christ specifically told the rich man that to be saved he need keep the commandments. Inconvenient enough for your argument, righteous Jews do indeed keep the commandments. So are they damned or not?

And I’m sure they keep the law as perfectly as Christ, in whom there is no spot, or blemish. (You’ve completely neglected all of the statements concerning the necessity of believing in Christ. Why is that?)

Teflon93:

Moreover, the great thinkers on your side try to claim “That was BEFORE the Cross!” Thus Christ the Used Car Salesman: he answers the rich man with a false teaching which he knows will be invalid within a year or two. Of course, when it comes time to read Daniel, the “BEFORE the Cross!” argument is set aside; it’s inconvenient for the Darbyite strain of rapture theology.

**Matthew 10:22

…but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.**

Teflon93:

I’m sorry, did Jean Calvin manage to get that particular passage redacted from your butchered Bible? The notion that God loves all men is anathema to the Calvinist, so intent on becoming NeoPharisees.

So angry…

Teflon93:

Since you can’t craft an argument, discussing how your theology was made up out of whole cloth more than a millennium and a half after the Apostolic Age seems a good place to start. After all, the reason you object to Genesis 8 IS due to your adherence to Rapture theology, is it not?

I have no presup with respect to Gen 8, as shown in my first statement on this thread—don’t forget to answer the questions I’ve asked with respect to those verses.

Teflon93:

Travel a little, Sandusky—you might be shocked to find how many people outside your little group actually strive to please God.

And I’m sure they do it perfectly as Christ, in whom there is no spot or blemish. (You’ve completely neglected all of the statements concerning the necessity of believing in Christ.
Why is that?)

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #124)

Teflon93:

Nice try, but your last sentence appears nowhere until the 16th century.

Faith alone does:

The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 with the word “alone.”

At 3:28 Luther introduced the adv. “only” into his translation of Romans (1522), “alleyn durch den Glauben” (WAusg 7.38); cf. Aus der Bibel 1546, “alleine durch den Glauben” (WAusg, DB 7.39); also 7.3-27 (Pref. to the Epistle). See further his Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen, of 8 Sept. 1530 (WAusg 30.2 [1909], 627-49; “On Translating: An Open Letter” [LuthW 35.175-202]). Although “alleyn/alleine” finds no corresponding adverb in the Greek text, two of the points that Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.

Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):

Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).

Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).

Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).

Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): “sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,” through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).

John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).

Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19]).

Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): “solam justificatur per fidem,” is justified by faith alone.

Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).

To these eight Lyonnet added two others (Quaestiones, 114-18):

Theodoret, Affectionum curatio 7 (PG 93.100; ed. J. Raeder [Teubner], 189.20-24).

Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): “reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam”; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): “solum ex fide Christi” [Opera 20.437, b41]).

See further:

Theodore of Mopsuestia, In ep. ad Galatas (ed. H. B. Swete), 1.31.15.

Marius Victorinus (ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16: “Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem” (For faith itself alone gives justification and sanctification); In ep. Pauli Ephesios (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15: “Sed sola fides in Christum nobis salus est” (But only faith in Christ is salvation for us).

Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”). Migne Latin Text: Venire quippe debet etiam illud in mentem, quod scriptum est, In hoc cognoscimus eum, si mandata ejus servemus. Qui dicit, Quia cognovi eum, et mandata ejus non servat, mendax est, et in hoc veritas non est (I Joan. II, 3, 4). Et ne quisquam existimet mandata ejus ad solam fidem pertinere: quanquam dicere hoc nullus est ausus, praesertim quia mandata dixit, quae ne multitudine cogitationem spargerent [Note: [Col. 0223] Sic Mss. Editi vero, cogitationes parerent.], In illis duobus tota Lex pendet et Prophetae (Matth. XXII, 40): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere Dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intelligatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur; tamen postea Joannes ipse aperuit quid diceret, cum ait: Hoc est mandatum ejus, ut credamus nomini Filii ejus Jesu Christi, et diligamns invicem (I Joan. III, 23) See De fide et operibus, Cap. XXII, §40, PL 40:223.

Source: Joseph A. Fitzmyer Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993) 360-361.