Jewish Question - Do you feel God's Covenant is still active?

[Xavierlives]

I understand: I am half American and half Canadian, and when either of the two take “cheap shots” at the other I too become defensive, sometimes overly. I apologize if I offended you in anything I wrote. It’s not my intention to be uncharitable, I am merely frustrated by the lady’s responses.

Take care and God bless

What do you call a man who was born in Canada but died in American?

Ooo… nevermind… wrong forum.

 

[wisdomseeker]

What was the context of God’s dialogue with Elijah? Israel was falling away, and people were beginning to follow other gods. To top it off, those prophets who remained faithful were being rounded up and killed, hence Elijah’s self-exile. Elijah is speaking to God because he believes he is the last one faithful to God, and God informs him that, in fact, there are still those in Israel who believe in the true God.

Now, what is the context that Paul is speaking of? Let’s review Romans 10 and what comes before the passage you cited:

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.” But Isaiah is very bold and says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.” But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people.” [Rom 10:16-21; NKJV; emphasis mine]

When Paul is speaking of the “remnant according to the election of grace,” he is speaking those Jews who remained faithful to God - ie, have followed Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Lord. Again, a distinction must be made between the ethnic Jews and the religious Jews - Paul is not speaking of the religious Jews, but the ethnic Jews who would still be considered part of “Israel” due to the tribal ties. This is why Paul makes the distinction, “I am an Israelite” - does this mean Paul maintained many Jewish beliefs including a denial of Christ’s divinity? Certainly not. Why, then, do we not apply that same standard which Paul gives himself to the context of what he speaks?

If he were speaking of all Jews, then, as Nine_Two said, this would contradict Paul’s later teachings that Gentiles are Jews on the inside and that salvation is only found through the grace of Christ. It would also contradict Christ’s own words, cited earlier in this thread.

I’m sorry, but that completely avoids responding to Nine_Two’s point that what Paul writes elsewhere contradicts your assumption based on an isolated passage.

 

[Xavierlives]

Did I answer your question, Sablouwho?

I am kind of scatter brained right now.

 

[sablouwho]

Did I answer your question, Sablouwho?

I am kind of scatter brained right now.

Well, actually, no, not yet. But you had warned me you were pretty busy so I didn’t want to bug you on it.

My basic questions for you were from this post, earlier in this thread, but I will repeat them here:

Okay, so on the other thread I had asked how you thought traditional Jews weren’t upholding their end? I am very curious to hear how you think that there would be more blessings if they would turn and see God.

I’m having a hard time understanding how they don’t “see God.” I mean, sure, traditional observant Jews don’t get the Jesus thing. But they DO “get God” as far as I can tell.

But I realize you are busy, so if you don’t get to it, no worries.

 

[Dokimas]

Then you are saying you do not think you are necessarily guided to your conclussion by the Holy Spirit, but may be wrong?

If you don’t know the argument you’re answering it is only polite to read back to remind yourself. The topic of this back and forth is in the thread title.

I’m saying the Holy Spirit knows whether or not my understandings are from Him. The ones that are not are wrong.​

I was either impolite, lazy or doing too much to be able to follow your suggestion.​

Maybe a polite response would be to catch a person up to speed.

 

[Xavierlives]

Okay, so on the other thread I had asked how you thought traditional Jews weren’t upholding their end? I am very curious to hear how you think that there would be more blessings if they would turn and see God.

I’m having a hard time understanding how they don’t “see God.” I mean, sure, traditional observant Jews don’t get the Jesus thing. But they DO “get God” as far as I can tell.

Ok, Sablouwho, my exam is over. I spent the weekend relaxing with family and friends. I am refreshed and ready to tackle this.

First off, I should say, I really struggle with this part of Christianity (and Judaism).

Lets go over what we know and see if there is any common ground.

God has shown a couple of men and women of faith (some are highlighted in Hebrews 11), but what we see is three basic structures of faith with God:

1. Pre-law (pre-Moses)
2. Law (Moses)
3. Post-Law (Jesus)

When we read the scriptures, we see people pleasing God in a faithful walk in all of these areas. We also see Christ saying he is the only way. So, how can Law and Pre-law faithful followers find Christ? Some Christian theologians (I don’t recall what the Catholic Church teaches) believe basically that people who died faithful to God are taken to Abraham’s Bosom (or like place) and they are being cared for and witnessed to by Christ. In effect, Faithful people were given a chance to hear Christ’s message and then given the opportunity to decided. Now, I’m not sure who would then become less faithful and not follow God (I mean it seems like a no-brainer).

But then we are left with another problem. The entire world does have places where Christ Message has not penatrated. So is it possible to have a faithful follower today?

Is it possible that a Jew has never heard of Jesus?

Is it possible they could be faithful to God?

Is it possible that Muslim or anyone has not heard about Christ?

Is it possible they could be faithful to God?

Ok. I think when I hear what you think about this, I’ll be ready to finish this.

 

[sablouwho]

First off, I should say, I really struggle with this part of Christianity (and Judaism).

Me too!

Lets go over what we know and see if there is any common ground.

So, how can Law and Pre-law faithful followers find Christ?Some Christian theologians (I don’t recall what the Catholic Church teaches) believe basically that people who died faithful to God are taken to Abraham’s Bosom (or like place) and they are being cared for and witnessed to by Christ. In effect, Faithful people were given a chance to hear Christ’s message and then given the opportunity to decided

Well, that is the $64 thousand dollar question, isn’t it!

I personally don’t worry about anyone in the pre-law category, since they all lived well before Jesus was born, and my belief is that God makes sure that *all *people who lived before the time of Jesus will get a fair shot. As to the details of how that works, I have no idea. Honestly, I don’t even think about this, it doesn’t keep me up at night.

I don’t know the official CC teaching either, FWIW. But I guess I believe in something like what you’ve outlined above, so long as it includes gentiles too, not just Jews.

Now, I’m not sure who would then become less faithful and not follow God (I mean it seems like a no-brainer).

I am not understanding what you are saying here. Can you rephrase?

But then we are left with another problem. The entire world does have places where Christ Message has not penatrated. So is it possible to have a faithful follower today?

In terms of their having as much access to salvation as the rest of us, I believe so. The reason why I believe so it this–think of people who lived during Jesus’ lifetime who were, say, in China. It would be grossly unfair of God, IMO, to come

Is it possible that a Jew has never heard of Jesus?

Is it possible they [Jews] could be faithful to God?

I do not know whether there are Jews who haven’t ever heard of Jesus, save those who are too young to understand. But I don’t think having

heard

his name is sufficient in terms of any kind of chance to believe anymore than hearing the word “microeconomics” means that a person understands anything about economic theory. Merely hearing the name and hearing the gospel message are two entirely different things IMO.

I will use my own experience as an example. I had “heard” of Jesus’ name and other than being vaguely that he played a major role in Christianity, I knew virtually nothing about him. I had no idea what the “gospel message” was–I thought “gospel” referred to a type of church music in the southern parts of the US. I had heard of the phrase “accepting Jesus as your personal savior” and I had no idea what this meant. My only exposure to any of the content of the 4 gospels had come through my studies in art history when I was in college. I distinctly remember first learning about the wedding at cana and the miracle of the loaves and the fishes through art. But to me, these were just stories similar to Greek mythology–at the time I had no idea at the time that Jesus had really been an actual historical person.

Most Jews, I think, have not truly heard the gospel message, so I don’t know how in the world they could possibly accept it (how could you accept something you haven’t been given?). Most of us just don’t go there–we are taught that it’s irrelevant and that the Christians are at best well-meaning but mistaken. And even if we do “go there”, I can tell you that there is such a fear of Christianity, not to mention so much “inoculation” AGAINST faith in Jesus, that it is very hard for us to wrap our minds around these foreign concepts. Unfortunately, a lot of Christian history doesn’t help these matters.

Is it possible they [Jews] could be faithful to God?

This question is the reason for this thread, as you had said something similar on the old thread, and I questioned it. I don’t mean offense toward you, but the question bugs me because it seems to reflect a lack of awareness that there are plenty of Jews who have a great love for God and are very faithful to him within the context of what it means to live a religious Jewish life. Granted, they don’t “get” the Jesus thing, but to think that they aren’t being faithful to God (in the way that he is understood in Judaism)…honestly, I just don’t understand the comment. I would say that they are being faithful to God in a way that is consistent with their beliefs about God. The idea that God would fault them for that is something that I cannot understand.

That is one of the reasons I found it difficult to be a Protestant, actually. I experienced Protestantism as a distinct “saved” and “unsaved” mentality. And it just didn’t make sense to me. Whereas in Catholic thinking, as far as I understand it, there is an understanding that God can and does work outside the sacraments.

Is it possible that Muslim or anyone has not heard about Christ?

Is it possible they could be faithful to God?

I don’t know about Muslims, but yeah. I have a sense that there are definitely people living today who haven’t heard about Christ. And again, as stated above, I think that ALL people need to have a chance to truly hear the gospel message. I don’t know how God does this, but I do believe that he must give everyone a fair shot. Otherwise, a frighteningly large number of people would be condemned through no fault of their own. And that, to me, would make God into a monster–if he was really like that, I think I might prefer that there was no God.

I hope that this helps you understand how I am seeing this a little better.

 

[Xavierlives]

PART 1 -

Well, that is the $64 thousand dollar question, isn’t it!

I personally don’t worry about anyone in the pre-law category, since they all lived well before Jesus was born, and my belief is that God makes sure that *all *people who lived before the time of Jesus will get a fair shot. As to the details of how that works, I have no idea. Honestly, I don’t even think about this, it doesn’t keep me up at night.

I don’t know the official CC teaching either, FWIW. But I guess I believe in something like what you’ve outlined above, so long as it includes gentiles too, not just Jews.
Xavierlives;6349081:

Faithful people were given a chance to hear Christ’s message and then given the opportunity to decided. Now, I’m not sure who would then become less faithful and not follow God (I mean it seems like a no-brainer).

I am not understanding what you are saying here. Can you rephrase?

Well there is a generalized thought that anyone pre-Christ must hear Christ’s message in order to also fulfill the “Christ is the only way” requirement. As I understand it, most denominations believe that pre-Christ faithful are/were given the opportunity to hear about Christ and make a choice. The no-brainer is, if someone is faithful to God pre-Christ, I’d assume they would be faithful in Christ. I can’t imagine Enoch not accepting Christ.

In terms of their having as much access to salvation as the rest of us, I believe so. The reason why I believe so it this–think of people who lived during Jesus’ lifetime who were, say, in China. It would be grossly unfair of God, IMO, to come

Some believe if you miss it (and never get Christ’s message) the first time, then you are headed for damnation. This does not sound like the loving and merciful God I know. I can’t say what provisions are made for them, but we see in John that a person is only accountable when they are aware of the law.

I do not know whether there are Jews who haven’t ever heard of Jesus, save those who are too young to understand. But I don’t think having his name is sufficient in terms of any kind of chance to believe anymore than hearing the word “microeconomics” means that a person understands anything about economic theory. Merely hearing the name and hearing the gospel message are two entirely different things IMO.

Well I mean hearing the message and not just the name.

 

[Xavierlives]

PART 2 -

I will use my own experience as an example. I had “heard” of Jesus’ name and other than being vaguely that he played a major role in Christianity, I knew virtually nothing about him. I had no idea what the “gospel message” was–I thought “gospel” referred to a type of church music in the southern parts of the US. I had heard of the phrase “accepting Jesus as your personal savior” and I had no idea what this meant. My only exposure to any of the content of the 4 gospels had come through my studies in art history when I was in college. I distinctly remember first learning about the wedding at cana and the miracle of the loaves and the fishes through art. But to me, these were just stories similar to Greek mythology–at the time I had no idea at the time that Jesus had really been an actual historical person.

Most Jews, I think, have not truly heard the gospel message, so I don’t know how in the world they could possibly accept it (how could you accept something you haven’t been given?). Most of us just don’t go there–we are taught that it’s irrelevant and that the Christians are at best well-meaning but mistaken. And even if we do “go there”, I can tell you that there is such a fear of Christianity, not to mention so much “inoculation” AGAINST faith in Jesus, that it is very hard for us to wrap our minds around these foreign concepts. Unfortunately, a lot of Christian history doesn’t help these matters.

This question is the reason for this thread, as you had said something similar on the old thread, and I questioned it. I don’t mean offense toward you, but the question bugs me because it seems to reflect a lack of awareness that there are plenty of Jews who have a great love for God and are very faithful to him within the context of what it means to live a religious Jewish life. Granted, they don’t “get” the Jesus thing, but to think that they aren’t being faithful to God (in the way that he is understood in Judaism)…honestly, I just don’t understand the comment. I would say that they are being faithful to God in a way that is consistent with their beliefs about God. The idea that God would fault them for that is something that I cannot understand.

That is one of the reasons I found it difficult to be a Protestant, actually. I experienced Protestantism as a distinct “saved” and “unsaved” mentality. And it just didn’t make sense to me. Whereas in Catholic thinking, as far as I understand it, there is an understanding that God can and does work outside the sacraments.

I don’t know about Muslims, but yeah. I have a sense that there are definitely people living today who haven’t heard about Christ. And again, as stated above, I think that ALL people need to have a chance to truly hear the gospel message. I don’t know how God does this, but I do believe that he must give everyone a fair shot. Otherwise, a frighteningly large number of people would be condemned through no fault of their own. And that, to me, would make God into a monster–if he was really like that, I think I might prefer that there was no God.

I hope that this helps you understand how I am seeing this a little better.

Ok, the reason I mention all of these, specifically the Jews, is because we see that Christ’s message is one of fulfillment. So, the message has been there all along, it is a matter of understanding it and living it. Which then makes a person say, if a pre-Christ Jew could live not the law but according to the law, then are the provisions that were in place 4000 years ago, still applicable?

Could we see an Elijah or an Enoch of our day? Most Christians would answer that since Christ has come and God has revealed himself in this way, that God would raise up men of God through Christianity, but I do not limit God. I would not see any contradiction in the Word if a prophet of Israel comes forth.

Back to the original thread concept though. We see in the scripture that the covenant God makes is an eternal one. It doesn’t say, it is good until another one comes along. It doesn’t say, it is good until God creates another covenant, it says it is eternal. We also see Israel mentioned in Revelation which again shows their importance to God’s plan. The problem is Israel struggles with God (by definition). They amazing aspect is, we are all Israelites. We all struggle with God. I once said, if God were ever to change my name, it would be changed to Israel, because, I am constantly grappling with Him. I am holding on tight so I won’t miss my blessings of being in his presence, but He will always be more than I can handle. (Sorry about the aside). So can Israel stop struggling with God and become unified? What would a unified Jewish nation look like? Even as a passive observer of Israel, I don’t see much chance. I think there is more of a chance for peace in the Middle East than a unified Israel (well I should say, I see a unified Israel in one way, but it would not be pretty).

I am not being very clear and I know it.

I still have not answered the main question, but I think I am getting closer. I think once Israel and the Jews are unified, I think they are one step closer to God. (But I also think that is the same thing for Catholics and Protestants). I think God will bless them. I think he will also convict their hearts. I say this because I know the word to be true.

(I am going to stop for now because I am babbling). Maybe I’ll give it another shot later.