Jewish view of Original Sin?

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A Jewish understanding of sin is explained best in relation to Torah. The root word for Torah is yarah, which loosely translated, means to “shoot correctly at a target.” To the Jewish mind, the Torah points one in the right way.

The Hebrew root of the word for sin, chet, loosely translated means to “fall short of the mark.”

A Jewish understanding of sin, would therefore mean to “miss the mark.”

To my knowledge, there is no formal Jewish doctrine of “Original Sin,” but a Judaic outlook would definitely acknowledge that in general, people, despite their best efforts, often “fall short of the mark.”
 
Dear 4Marks,

Thanks for your clear, concise reply. It was
enlightening.

reen12
 
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reen12:
Hi, ahimsaman,

Let’s hear it for “wandering thoughts”!

A wonderful post, and heart warming to find
another who worries about breaking the first
commandment if Jesus of Nazareth is not
the Son of God. “Hear, O Israel, the Lord
our God, the Lord is One.”

Will you please give the following some thought
and let me know your assessment of same?
I think it was C.S. Lewis who said that
settling for accepting Jesus as a great prophet
was untenable…because the gospels report
that Jesus called Himself God: “He who sees
Me, sees the Father.” Or, His response when
Peter says: Thou art the Christ [the anointed,
the messiah], the Son of the living God." ie.
heaven has revealed this to you [Peter].

So, according to Lewis, if Jesus is not the
Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity,
then He was simply deluded.
That put to rest any thoughts I may have
entertained about accepting Christ in any way
other than the assertions that He puts forth.

Any thoughts?
reen12
Click to expand...
Hey reen!!

Yes, I understand Lewis’s assertion. One of my former pastors delivered a sermon (which is widely delivered any given Sunday) called, “Jesus Christ is either Lord, liar or lunatic”. It was very persuasive.

However, we are going on the assumption that the New Testament and its writers wrote the truth when they quote Jesus. I have always taken the Bible to heart and believed every word. But, if the writings are not absolutely true or without bias then we have potential problems.

There are parts of the NT I look at now that simply do not make sense. Jesus says “I came not to bring peace, but a sword”, then he is quoted as saying, “Peace I leave with you - not as the world gives…” It just doesn’t add up. At times he is turning over tables in the temple and at others he is saying “turn the other cheek when someone slaps you.”

Jesus is quoted as saying, “love your enemies, do good to them that persecute you.” but then is also quoted as saying to his enemies, “depart from me into the everlasting fire”. It is hard to swallow that this duality exists in his words and actions. It is possible his words and actions were misconstrued and that he was slandered.

These are just my hones thoughts and observations and I mean no offense to my fellow Christians here. And I don’t mean to lead you astray from your faith. Faith is a precious thing in a person’s life. I have lost mine, but I don’t want you to lose yours simply by my fumbling about with words here.

Blessings and peace to you…
 
Clear and concise?

If the Torah-the first 5 books of the Bible contains the book of Genesis, and the last time I checked it did-I would have to guess that Adam and Eve would be there-unless some Rabbi decided to do a Vatican II (and “update” the Bible and come out with a PC version as we have in the NAB). If Jewish people have to atone for their sin as they do on Yom Kippur-I guess they are “missing the mark” or “Torah” as all of us do, and if they said they always “hit the mark” then I guess that would be quite brash, would you not say?

But the obviously dont get baptised-to wash away original sin as we believe. So I would like another clear, concise reply as to how a child, born into original sin, as we all are per Genesis, does away with their sin. We have the sacrament of Pennance, does a young Jewish child just have to fast on Yom Kippur and all is forgiven???`
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reen12:
Dear 4Marks,

Thanks for your clear, concise reply. It was
enlightening.

reen12
Click to expand...
 
Dear BulldogCath,

I have just started a thread in which I state that
I can no longer be considered a Roman Catholic.

May I ask you a question?
What is your view on having a forum devoted to
Non-Catholic Religions? What do you see as
the purpose of having such a forum available?

With respect,

reen12
 
reen

I dont think you should leave the church, if we all leave, then it just lets those who have their motives of bringing it on down. I see no reason why on a Catholic board there is even such of a string for non-Catholics, when most catholics, myself included know so little about our own faith-while we are being force fed all this gunk about other faiths.

You are in my prayers
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reen12:
Dear BulldogCath,

I have just started a thread in which I state that
I can no longer be considered a Roman Catholic.

May I ask you a question?
What is your view on having a forum devoted to
Non-Catholic Religions? What do you see as
the purpose of having such a forum available?

With respect,

reen12
Click to expand...
 
Could it be that you are tempted to be Jewish because it is EASIER in some way? I don’t know anything about the Jewish beliefs, but I know that it can be difficult to examine our conscience on a regular basis and go to Confession, especially if there is a particular sin or moral issue tripping us up.

It is hard for me to understand that someone who has been baptised and received the Eucharist does not feel that Jesus is God. Maybe because I was baptized as an adult and I remember how it felt. Pure joy. It was very special.

Perhaps, you have separated Jesus from God too much. It is hard to think of a triune God, but it is important for us to remember that Jesus is God.

Have you considered going to Adoration? Also, can you focus on the sacraments and whether or not you can feel the grace that comes with these?

Before you spend too much time researching the Jewish Faith, I hope you spend lots of time studying the Catholic Faith to be sure what you have been taught is true. For example, what is dogma regarding Mary? I have heard that we don’t need to believe in Marian Apparitions to be CAtholic. Pray, pray, pray, that your faith in God is strengthened and that you recognize Jesus as God.
 
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BulldogCath:
Clear and concise?

If the Torah-the first 5 books of the Bible contains the book of Genesis, and the last time I checked it did-I would have to guess that Adam and Eve would be there-unless some Rabbi decided to do a Vatican II (and “update” the Bible and come out with a PC version as we have in the NAB). If Jewish people have to atone for their sin as they do on Yom Kippur-I guess they are “missing the mark” or “Torah” as all of us do, and if they said they always “hit the mark” then I guess that would be quite brash, would you not say?

But the obviously dont get baptised-to wash away original sin as we believe. So I would like another clear, concise reply as to how a child, born into original sin, as we all are per Genesis, does away with their sin. We have the sacrament of Pennance, does a young Jewish child just have to fast on Yom Kippur and all is forgiven???`
Click to expand...
Dear Bulldog,

Please understand that my response was an explanation from a Judaic perspective not a Roman Catholic perspective.
 
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reen12:
Would someone please explain to me what the
Jewish view is on what Catholics call Original
Sin?

And where was the idea of original sin first put
forth and by whom within Catholicism?

I’ve been wrestling with doubt about this
doctrine for over 45 years.
Thanks,
reen12
Click to expand...
Hi Maureen,

There is no Jewish view on what Catholics call “Original sin”. They don’t have a doctrine or belief in the concept of what Catholic’s call original sin. What they do believe is that everybody born is born with a clean slate and no sin.

Love,
Scarlet
 
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reen12:
Hi, ahimsaman, my good friend!

I understand exactly what you’re saying.

The conundrum in all of this, for me, is the
following:

There’s no way on earth that I will be able
to say: Yeshua of Nazareth is not
*Messiah. *I don’t know that He is, but He
may very well be.

Even if there are pagan beliefs [Isis and Osiris?]
that parallel Christian salvation history, that
does not trouble me.

What troubles me is not Jesus of Nazareth,
but the endless flow of words that have filled
the centuries…defining what might have been more
wisely left alone…ie purgatory,
limbo, original sin, Marian dogmas,
sacramental ‘system’.
[for instance: isn’t it possible to honor Mary without
“speculating” more about her than the
gospels provide? and then calling those
speculations “dogmas”…and, no, I’m
*not
Click to expand...
adopting “sola scriptura” any time
soon!"]
But it’s the definition of original sin that
sets in motion a panoply of other doctrines and
dogmas. I didn’t believe it when I was 12 and
I don’t believe it now.
Grand to hear from you, ahimsaman,

reen12

Hi Maureen,

I read with interest your statement:

"The conundrum in all of this, for me, is the
following:

There’s no way on earth that I will be able
to say: Yeshua of Nazareth is not
*Messiah. *I don’t know that He is, but He
may very well be."

Maureen, my Jewish friends who practiced various forms of Judaism would all tell me that they may disagree on different things in Judaism, even to what degree to keep the Torah. But one thing they all agree on and that is that Jesus is not the messiah. If you ask around enough of those that practice Judaism why they will not say that Jesus was the messiah they will tell you all the reasons why. There’s no reason for me to post their reasons at a Catholic forum.

If you are unwilling to deny that Jesus was the messiah then you are closer to Christianity than you are to Judaism because although Judaism’s heart is the keeping of the Torah and not the arrival of the messiah, the coming of the messiah, and that being Jesus, is the heart of Christianity.

Love,
Scarlet
 
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BulldogCath:
reen

I dont think you should leave the church, if we all leave, then it just lets those who have their motives of bringing it on down. I see no reason why on a Catholic board there is even such of a string for non-Catholics, when most catholics, myself included know so little about our own faith-while we are being force fed all this gunk about other faiths.

You are in my prayers
Click to expand...
Actually, there really isn’t a good reason, at least to me, that there is such a forum allowed at a Catholic board unless there are Catholics available who are able to answer consisely and accurately the different questions regarding the comparisons between Judaism and Catholicism. It’s my experience that most Catholics cannot defend Catholicism properly against Judaism because we haven’t had to for many many years. Unfortunately, it isn’t the Jews who are coming to our people and boards and asking questions or presenting their views. It’s our own Catholics and possible ex-Catholics. I think we need to somehow step up our awareness. It used to be just the evangelicals and protestants we had to worry about. Now we have to worry about our own Catholics.

In Christ,
Scarlet
 
I’ve always wondered, how do Jews read the passage Isaiah 53? As a Christian I have always read Christ into that passage.

I’m interested in getting an understanding of how Jews read this passage.

Also, do orthodox Jews only accept the Pentateuch?

As for Jesus contradicting Himself, I don’t believe He did so when you read Him in context. For instance when He talks about the sword in Matt 10:34 He is not advocating violence, but that because of Him violence will occur. Families will separate, people will fight, etc. Look to northern Ireland for the truth of His statement. So this passage does not contradict His teachings against violence, but that because of who He is and what He teaches, violence will occur.

When He tells people to love their enemies and do good to them, I again don’t think He contradicts Himself by telling others to “depart from me into everlasting fire.” The reason is that He was speaking from the position of God. God ultimately is the judge and if we do have original sin, then suffering at the hands of human tormenters has a cleansing effect upon our souls. God ultimately does love His enemies, but it is they who do not, by free will, love Him. Hence, if Jesus was God, then He can condemn enemies to the eternal fire, since it is their free will that chooses not to love God.

It’s interesting that, at least from what I gathered from reading here, Jews think we die as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge before the tree of life. This to me seems unjust of God, to punish us with death for someone else doing things out of order.

To me as a Catholic it seems much more plausible philosophically, that a just God would punish us with death continually only because we are originally unclean and received that from our original parents. If we are not born with original sin, it seems to be injustice that God would allow me or anyone else to die simply for someone else doing things out of order. Why doesn’t He extend the tree of life to the rest of us? Perhaps those with a better understanding of Judaism can enlighten me.

That’s just my two cents.

P.S. The term “orginal sin” was coined by Augustine. Until that time the Church Fathers called it “Adam’s sin.”
 
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reen12:
Hi, ahimsaman, my good friend!

I understand exactly what you’re saying.

The conundrum in all of this, for me, is the
following:

There’s no way on earth that I will be able
to say: Yeshua of Nazareth is not
*Messiah. *I don’t know that He is, but He
may very well be.

Even if there are pagan beliefs [Isis and Osiris?]
that parallel Christian salvation history, that
does not trouble me.

What troubles me is not Jesus of Nazareth,
but the endless flow of words that have filled
the centuries…defining what might have been more
wisely left alone…ie purgatory,
limbo, original sin, Marian dogmas,
sacramental ‘system’.
[for instance: isn’t it possible to honor Mary without
“speculating” more about her than the
gospels provide? and then calling those
speculations “dogmas”…and, no, I’m
*not
Click to expand...
adopting “sola scriptura” any time
soon!"]
But it’s the definition of original sin that
sets in motion a panoply of other doctrines and
dogmas. I didn’t believe it when I was 12 and
I don’t believe it now.
Grand to hear from you, ahimsaman,

reen12

Peace be with you Reen12,

What you appear to be professing is not Judaism but in fact Islam.

Where Judaism denies Jesus Christ as the Messiah Islam recoginizes him as such but not as the “literal” Son of God. They also deny the Trinity which you appear to have done eventhough you haven’t directly do so. I have been in long dialogs with Muslims and some are truly wise and gifted individuals but in the end I was no able to deny Jesus as “the” Prophet and “the” High Priest our our Heavenly Father. I am keenly aware of the difficultlies one experiences with dogmas and doctrines which is why my decisions did not rest upon them but on the becoming Christ-like. To truly be such is in a certain sense to be unknown for the world will not understand for worldly knowledge is capable to grasp the divine.

Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called and should be the sons of God. Therefore the world knoweth not us, because it knew not him. - 1 John 3:1 DRB

I would ask for you to not seek doctrine that match your frame of mind but simply rest in the peace of God which is love.

Dearly beloved, let us love one another: for charity is of God. And every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God: for God is charity. - 1 John 4:7-8 DRB

I ask you to recognize the liberty in which you rest.

Now the Lord is a Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. - 2 Corinthians 3:17 DRB

I ask you to stand fast in that liberty, that freedom, that nakedness.

Stand fast and be not held again under the yoke of bondage. - Galatians 5:1 DRB

I ask you to not be so quick to don another yoke which you might find later to be an unnecessary burden.

Catholic-Answers can often become a place of legalisms and doctrines and dogmas etc. But our Lord came to liberate not burden.

For my yoke is sweet and my burden light. - Matthew 11:30 DRB

Our lord was light unto our path through the legalisms of His day and He continues to show us that light in ours.

But the path of the just, as a shining light, goeth forwards, and increaseth even to perfect day. The way of the wicked is darksome: they know not where they fall. My daughter, hearken to my words, and incline thy ear to my sayings. Let them not depart from thy eyes, keep them in the midst of thy heart: For they are life to those that find them, and health to all flesh. - Proverbs 4:18-22 DRB

I leave you to prayerful reflection dear one. You are in my prayers my beloved. Amen.

Peace, Love and Blessings.
 
Hi all!

4 Marks, you posted:
The root word for Torah is yarah, which loosely translated, means to “shoot correctly at a target.” To the Jewish mind, the Torah points one in the right way.
Click to expand...
While the Torah certainly does point us in the right way, the root for Torah is the 3 Hebrew letters heh-resh-heh, or h-r-h. The 3-letter-root for the word “to shoot” is yud-resh-heh or y-r-h. The h-r-h root means “to guide/instruct.” The Hebrew words for “parent” (horeh), “teacher” (moreh), and “instruction” (hora’ah) are all cognates of the same root.

Regarding our views on sin, repentance, etc., see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=294405&highlight=forgiveness#post294405.

About Lilith, I say Lilith, shmilith; see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=449627&highlight=Lilith#post449627.

JP2Admirer, try jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-ss.html for a look at our views on Isaiah 53.

We accept all of the books of what our Christian friends refer to as the “Old Testament” (and which call the Tanakh) as our scriptural canon.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi all!

4 Marks, you posted:

While the Torah certainly does point us in the right way, the root for Torah is the 3 Hebrew letters heh-resh-heh, or h-r-h. The 3-letter-root for the word “to shoot” is yud-resh-heh or y-r-h. The h-r-h root means “to guide/instruct.” The Hebrew words for “parent” (horeh), “teacher” (moreh), and “instruction” (hora’ah) are all cognates of the same root.

ssv 👋
Click to expand...
Thank you for clarifying this further. I am certainly not a linguist, nor am I a Hebrew scholar. As a Catholic, I have a great respect and admiration for the Jewish people. I also share in some paternal Jewish ancestry. It is a delight to have people with a Jewish religious background participate in these forums. 🙂
 
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