Jews and JWs

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Read a little further in the chapter. From the USCCB website…

45… those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
… offered for the sins of the dead,…(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:43-46)
I still don’t see any reference to an immortal soul here. -Even in an uninspired book!
The resurection taught by the Jews and jesus and his apostles contradicts the traditional teaching of the greeks and Christendom of an immortal human soul.

I don’t see your point friend! 🤷
 
WRONG! The following is is NOT proof the OT was fixed prior to the 1st century.

NO WHERE…does Flavius declare or mention a FIXED canon…NO WHERE. The fact he mentions a set of books or reference of books does not prove an existing canon existed.

Tell me something, WHEN,WHERE and WHO FIXED the OT canon prior to the 1st century A.D?
Oh for crying out loud. I get this alot on this website:
I quote scripture and encyclopedias to answer and explain why Jehovah’s Witnesses believe something - and people desperately go screaming off the point since they have no argument or proof to defend their belief.

Here I answered a question about why the JW’s don’t follow that the Jew’s believed in an immortal soul - (by pointing out the Jews didn’t believe anything of the kind) - and suddenly I find myself being lead into an unrelated topic on why an apocrapha book (that also doesn’t teach the immortal soul) is not inspired.

Never mind. Believe what ever un-scriptural doctrine you like.

If you ever want truth with evidence, you know where to look for it.

Bye.
 
I still don’t see any reference to an immortal soul here. -Even in an uninspired book!
The resurection taught by the Jews and jesus and his apostles contradicts the traditional teaching of the greeks and Christendom of an immortal human soul.

I don’t see your point friend! 🤷
Read the verses again. What would be the point to pray for the dead to free them from sin? The WTBS teaches that the dead are conscious of nothing at all. Would good would it do for someone to pray for them?

Next, how do you know that is uninspired? You cite Jerome as proof. Despite Jerome’s personal feelings on the matter, (which we could spend a whole thread on if you want) he adhered to the Magisterium’s (governing body) ruling on the matter. Since the very beginning the Christian community accepted these Deuterocanonicals as scripture. Even the 1611 King James version had these books in them. So the onus lies with you to determine HOW is one able to deterime what is inspired and what is not? How do you know that what is in the New Testament is sufficent, and who made that determination? It seems that the same entity that determined that Deuterocanonicals are scripture, you reject, and then the same entity that determined what was the New Testament, you accept. Why? If you think that Jermome was some sort of champion of your cause to determine this, what about Luther? He claimed James was an epistle of straw and wanted to remove it, or at the very least put in the back of the bible as an appendage, along with a couple of others. In both cases, Jerome and Luther were not successful. Why? Why is Jerome right and Luther wrong?

You stated earlier that Jesus did not quote from these Deuterocanonical books, so that means what? That they aren’t legit? Jesus didn’t quote from some of the other OT books either. Does that mean they aren’t scripture?

There are examples of the writers making refences to these Deuterocanonical books. For example, read Hebrews 11:35. The writer is making a reference to the very example I showed you 2 Maccabess chapter 7. Where would this writer, who wrote an accepted inspired book, Hebrews, being getting this reference from? Nowhere in all the OT outisde 2 Macc. does this example exist of what is mentioned. He obviously showed respect for this book and thought enough of the example to include it in his letter to the Hebrews.

Let’s keep in mind that the Jews that did not accept Christ are the ones who compiled the Palestine canon in 90 AD, thus rejecting these books. Why? Let’s take a look at one of them, Wisdom 2:10-20.

“Let us oppress the needy just man; let us neither spare the widow nor revere the old man for his hair grown white with time. But let our strength be our norm of justice; for weakness proves itself useless. Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD. To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways. He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him.”

Pretty damaging stuff, so of course the Jews, who did not want to follow Christ, did not want this in there. So, are we Christians, following Christ, or are we clinging to the rejection by the Jews who did not follow the Messiah? Read how the Palestine canon came about and why, as it it is very enlightening. Remember, Jospehus was not a Christian as far as we can tell. His motives about what was scripture and what was not was based on old Jewish beliefs, not on who Christ was and his acceptance of Him.

There are examples of the dead being conscious in the NT. If you’d like, we can discuss this further. As a side note, Jesus nor the apostles talked about about a paradise here on earth.
 
originally posted by Regardless
Macabees isn’t in the Bible. It’s a book of the apocrypha. I don’t believe it is inspired.
Well, just because you don’t believe it is inspired does not make it uninspired.
Macabees was certainly part of the Bible and recognised as inspired by both Jews and Christians until the 16th century.
1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), additions to Esther, and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel. Orthodox Old Testaments include these plus 1st and 2nd Esdras, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151 and 3rd Maccabees.

protestants, in particular, Martin Luther, did not want to believe the centuries old teaching of Purgatory or James 2:14 or many other doctrines found in the Bible so they were moved to what is now called apocrypha, added and subtracted words to suit their own agendas. Up until the 19th century the apocrypha was still included in protestant Bibles.
You might want to read the history of the Bible, where it came from, who put it together, etc. And don’t read only one explaination. Dig! Read much.
As Cardinal John Henry Newman said, “to be steeped in history is to cease being a protestant”.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
WRONG! The following is is NOT proof the OT was fixed prior to the 1st century.

NO WHERE…does Flavius declare or mention a FIXED canon…NO WHERE. The fact he mentions a set of books or reference of books does not prove an existing canon existed.
Tell me something, WHEN,WHERE and WHO FIXED the OT canon prior to the 1st century A.D?
Oh for crying out loud. I get this alot on this website:
I quote scripture and encyclopedias to answer and explain why Jehovah’s Witnesses believe something - and people desperately go screaming off the point since they have no argument or proof to defend their belief.

Here I answered a question about why the JW’s don’t follow that the Jew’s believed in an immortal soul - (by pointing out the Jews didn’t believe anything of the kind) - and suddenly I find myself being lead into an unrelated topic on why an apocrapha book (that also doesn’t teach the immortal soul) is not inspired.

Never mind. Believe what ever un-scriptural doctrine you like.

If you ever want truth with evidence, you know where to look for it.

Bye.
and people desperately go screaming off the point since they have no argument or proof to defend their belief
The truth hurts at times-eh? Look who is talking? I asked to show me WHEN,WHERE and WHO canonized the OT before the 1st century A.D.?

You did not provide a single shred of evidence other than your opinions. By the way, you should understand the term FIXED in relation to scripture.
 
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