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De_Maria
Guest
@BenYosef
Why do Jews not recognize that Jesus is God?
Why do Jews not recognize that Jesus is God?
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runningdude
Guest
Because if they recognized his divinity, they wouldn’t be Jews; they’d be Christians!
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Wesrock
Guest
Just going to state that I see at least two questions here:
(1) Why don’t Jews believe Jesus is the Messiah, and
(2) Why don’t Jews believe God assumed human nature in the person of Jesus.
Don’t mean to interject, but I’m not myself sure which one you mean.
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BenYosef
Guest
As pointed out above by Wesrock, your question goes into the fundamentals about why Christians do believe Jesus is God more than merely why we as Jews don’t.
Christians believe Jesus is God for various reasons. I remember St. John Paul II said in one Christmas homily that Christ became man so man can become like God, that Jesus gave up his divinity in sacrifice so that humanity can partake of that divinity. It was a beautiful and touching sermon.
Judaism understands this need for humanity to “partake of the divine nature.” (2 Peter 1.4) In our tradition, we believe that we already do contain a spark of the divine within us. That illumination is so bright that God could make the promise to us: “I will also make you a light of nations.”–Isaiah 49.6.
As Jews, we recognize that spark of the divine in every human being–yes, even in Jesus of Nazareth. But that light stops there. In the words of our prayer, Adon Olam:
While the monotheism of Judaism will not yield to a dichotomy, it does not make us more correct or better than the religious theology of Christianity. This understanding is merely the way Jews carry on our conversation about God and how we move forward with that understanding in helping form the world we live in through justice and redemption. Each must do the same with the faith and insight that God has graciously granted them.
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De_Maria
Guest
I meant God. But your questions are legitimate.De_Maria:
Just going to state that I see at least two questions here:
(1) Why don’t Jews believe Jesus is the Messiah, and
(2) Why don’t Jews believe God assumed human nature in the person of Jesus.
Don’t mean to interject, but I’m not myself sure which one you mean.
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De_Maria
Guest
Whoosh! That went right over my head.
I don’t see why my question to you about what you don’t believe, is about what I believe.
Without meaning to be rude, that wasn’t my question. I know why I believe that Jesus is God. I’m trying to find out why you don’t. What standard did He not measure up to?
Ok. Now we’re getting warm.
I notice that you’re quoting the New Testament. I think you did that in a previous message, as well. What is a Reconstructionist Jew? Why are you quoting the NT? Because I believe it? Or because you believe it?
I never saw that as a promise of divinity. But I agree that it is there, now that you mention it. Although, I believe we call it, divinization.
Believe me. I understand your dilemma. Sometimes I feel as though God set you up. One day, I was reading the Deuteronomy and I saw this admonition:
cont’d
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De_Maria
Guest
cont’d with @BenYosef
Deut 13: 2 If there arises in your midst a prophet or a dreamer who promises you a sign or wonder, 3 saying, “Let us go after other gods,” whom you have not known, …6 …that prophet or that dreamer shall be put to death,
I said, "Wow! The Jews actually did what God commanded when they put Jesus to death for revealing that He is God. A “god” they had not previously known.
It kind of shook me. I mean, God is not supposed to deceive people, right? But I remembered another Jew who said:
Jeremiah 20:7 You seduced me, Lord, and I let myself be seduced;
Some versions say, “you tricked me”.
It was hard to reconcile with my understanding of God. But, it stayed on my mind. Later, much later. Maybe years. I was reading this verse.
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. 16 Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive.
And I had a realization. The Church has always taught that Jesus death on the Cross was God’s plan from the beginning. And I saw that here is the reason why the Jews (and I know that’s not politically correct to say) had to kill God. In order that they could receive the promised eternal inheritance. This is why God prepared a human body for Himself.
So, anyway, now you’ve piqued my curiousity as to what you actually believe. Is your group also known as Messianic Judaism?
Deut 13: 2 If there arises in your midst a prophet or a dreamer who promises you a sign or wonder, 3 saying, “Let us go after other gods,” whom you have not known, …6 …that prophet or that dreamer shall be put to death,
I said, "Wow! The Jews actually did what God commanded when they put Jesus to death for revealing that He is God. A “god” they had not previously known.
It kind of shook me. I mean, God is not supposed to deceive people, right? But I remembered another Jew who said:
Jeremiah 20:7 You seduced me, Lord, and I let myself be seduced;
Some versions say, “you tricked me”.
It was hard to reconcile with my understanding of God. But, it stayed on my mind. Later, much later. Maybe years. I was reading this verse.
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. 16 Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive.
And I had a realization. The Church has always taught that Jesus death on the Cross was God’s plan from the beginning. And I saw that here is the reason why the Jews (and I know that’s not politically correct to say) had to kill God. In order that they could receive the promised eternal inheritance. This is why God prepared a human body for Himself.
Its not just the monotheism of Judaism. The belief takes us to the limits of reason and has to be accepted in faith. In order to begin to understand this Doctrine, one must first submit in faith and then God might grant some understanding. At least, that’s been my experience.
So, anyway, now you’ve piqued my curiousity as to what you actually believe. Is your group also known as Messianic Judaism?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Having discussed this topic many times over the years, I think the simplest, most direct, answer is that we don’t accept the ‘New Testament’ to be either scripture or reportage.
By the way, the Pesach (passover) festival starts this evening so some Jewish members of CAF may not be around much for a few days.
By the way, the Pesach (passover) festival starts this evening so some Jewish members of CAF may not be around much for a few days.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Just to add the wish that Christian members have a Good and Holy Easter.
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Cecilia2017
Guest
And Happy Pesach to all Jewish members. 
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meltzerboy2
Guest
It is thought by Jews that Gd cannot assume human nature since doing that is contrary to Gd’s nature. Why is it contrary? One of the reasons is that assuming human nature means that Gd is capable of sin. This is why, I presume, that Christian theology must make the point that Jesus is not capable of sin. (And neither is His mother, Mary, for that matter, according to Catholics, I believe.)
Likewise, since the Messiah is of human form or flesh, he cannot be Gd. A prophet, yes, a messenger, yes, a pious and learned man and Jew, yes; but not divine. Further, the Hebrew word “Moshiach” does not mean Savior. The purpose of the Messiah is not to save us from damnation but rather to establish spiritual dominion in Israel by making it plain to all the nations that there is only one true Gd of the universe. There will not have to be any kind of forced conversion to Judaism for the whole world will know that Gd exists and that He is One. The world will at last live together in peace. This is why Christians await the Second Coming of Jesus.
Likewise, since the Messiah is of human form or flesh, he cannot be Gd. A prophet, yes, a messenger, yes, a pious and learned man and Jew, yes; but not divine. Further, the Hebrew word “Moshiach” does not mean Savior. The purpose of the Messiah is not to save us from damnation but rather to establish spiritual dominion in Israel by making it plain to all the nations that there is only one true Gd of the universe. There will not have to be any kind of forced conversion to Judaism for the whole world will know that Gd exists and that He is One. The world will at last live together in peace. This is why Christians await the Second Coming of Jesus.
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De_Maria
Guest
I get that. But, I assume, you’ve heard of Jesus. And you’ve seen how much influence He has had all over the world. And perhaps you noticed that He came at the time the prophecied Messiah was expected. So, none of this matters to you?
Thanks.
I imagine a lot of Catholics will also be out, since this is our Holy Week.
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De_Maria
Guest
Oh. We don’t believe that human nature includes sin. The Jewish Scriptures tell us that God made Adam and Eve without sin. At least, that’s my understanding. The sin which we have now is in our “fallen” nature.
Thanks for your reply.
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Autumn-Smoke
Guest
I’ve run into a few Messianic Jews, and I know there’s a few groups out there, who, even though they believe Jesus is the Messiah, they don’t believe he is God. I believe their main premises as that the Jewish People never believed that the Messiah was to be God. This, though, is not the belief of most Messianic Jews who do believe in Jesus’ Divinity.
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BenYosef
Guest
Reconstructing Judaism came from Orthodox Judaism and is not a form of Messianic Judaism.
While the smallest of the major American denominations of Judaism, it is the most influential. It is responsible for having shaped modern Judaism through the 20th century to what it is recognized today.
For instance, the Bat Mitzvah (a Bar Mitzvah for girls) came from Reconstructionism and is now practiced in all the major Jewish denominations. Reconstructionism was also the first denomination to ordain a woman as a rabbi through its college. From egalitarianism to the way language and interfaith members are handled in congregations throughout Judaism, all this and many other practices began through the influence of Reconstructing Judaism.
Basically, we have the theological lean of the Reform with the serious attachment to the practice of tradition of the Orthodox. We understand that “the past has a vote but not a veto” when it comes to deciding how to live out Judaism in the face of modern Jewish situations.
You can learn more about us at https://www.reconstructingjudaism.org/
As for further discussion along this path about the divinity of Christ, it has been handled so many times and my answer stands as it does. If you want to debate it further I suggest you take it up with someone else who wishes to debate. I don’t. I stand by what I wrote, which you quoted:
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Judaism does not believe in the Fall of mankind or original sin. On the contrary, it believes that humanity is born with the potential for goodness. Even the “evil” component of mankind in its aggressive form is regarded as necessary for survival. However, sin against Gd and against one’s fellow man is also a potential, as reflected by Adam and Eve, who disobeyed Gd. If they were not at least capable of such disobedience, how could they have eaten of the Tree of Knowledge? They must have had at least the potential to sin, whether or not provoked by Satan, within their nature from the start. (Note that this is my interpretation: not all Jews will agree.) Given this potential, Gd must be only spirit, never assuming a human nature, since doing so would make Him susceptible to committing sin, apart from limiting His omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, and so on. I realize Christianity believes that Gd intentionally humbled Himself to become part of humanity to show His ultimate love for His (human) Creation, as well as even dying to redeem us. Judaism believes, however, that He already has shown His ultimate love by creating us in His image and giving us His Law to show us how to live a good and moral life. No sacrifice is believed to be necessary because He has already instructed us regarding how to live so that we are not destined to death in the first place.
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BartholomewB
Guest
I see that @Kaninchen, @BenYosef, @meltzerboy2 and others have given very full answers to the OP’s question, so maybe, like the foolish virgins, I’m arriving too late at the party. All the same, I would query what seems to be the OP’s underlying assumption, namely that it ought to have been obvious to everyone in Judea that Jesus was fulfilling the OT prophecies about the Messiah. I think there are two arguments that point in the opposite direction. First, the Messiah, the Lord’s anointed, is invariably referred to the OT (as far as I can see) as a man, not in any way a divine being. Sometimes, significantly, the word is found in the plural, as in 1 Chron 16:22, where the Lord warns Israel’s enemies to do no harm to “my anointed ones (my Messiahs, my Christs) and my prophets.” In the Vulgate, this verse reads, “Nolite tangere christos meos, et in prophetis meis nolite malignari.”
Second, in the Herodian period the expected Messiah was thought of as a new David, a political leader who would “redeem” Israel from its subjection to foreign powers, whether Babylon, Egypt, or Rome. The New Testament commentaries that I have seen make this clear when they deal with passages such as Matt 22:41-46 and Luke 20:41-44. They point out that Jesus is here rejecting the idea of a political Messiah, asserting, instead, that he will be a more exalted figure: instead of sitting on the throne of David, he will share the throne of God (Psalm 110). This is not the message that people in Roman-occupied Judea were hoping to hear, and they had abundant quotations from the Scriptures to back them up.
Second, in the Herodian period the expected Messiah was thought of as a new David, a political leader who would “redeem” Israel from its subjection to foreign powers, whether Babylon, Egypt, or Rome. The New Testament commentaries that I have seen make this clear when they deal with passages such as Matt 22:41-46 and Luke 20:41-44. They point out that Jesus is here rejecting the idea of a political Messiah, asserting, instead, that he will be a more exalted figure: instead of sitting on the throne of David, he will share the throne of God (Psalm 110). This is not the message that people in Roman-occupied Judea were hoping to hear, and they had abundant quotations from the Scriptures to back them up.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Apparently you are no “foolish virgin”!
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De_Maria
Guest
That it ought to be obvious today. Based upon the influence He has had in the world along with the fulfillment of the Messianic promises and descriptions of God in the OT, (for those familiar with the NT).
When I converted to Christianity from Atheism, I took those things into account. But I don’t see atheists converting in droves, either.
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LateranBasilica
Guest
Firstly, i believe the tone your replies to the Jewish CAF members who have taken the time to reply to you to be quite uncharitable.
Secondly please read the Catechism before throwing around statements like the Jews put Jesus to death.
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