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reteeks21
Guest
And the same is not being done to those who are defending Osteen, or on any other thread where folks may disagree with the RCC?
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jblake
Guest
Schultzz;:
If, by “appear to be”, you were referring to the results of his actions, then the question is: “How much has his congregation matured spiritually?”
Going by the published results of Willow Creek’s survey on spiritual maturity, the answer is “No”. (Indeed, one critic has claimed that whilst there is no correlation between spiritual maturity, and length of time of being a Christian, other data suggests that the correlation is negative.)
I’ll grant that Reveal Research methodology leaves much to be desired, because it relies on subjective statements, not objective data. Furthermore, it omits gathering some crucial data. Nonetheless it is a pointer.
One other issue with that research, is that it focuses on megachurches.
Do those in small churches or medium size churches show the same pattern? Based on the data from The Local Church, I’d suggest otherwise — ignoring issues about their theology. However, that data could be misleading, because of the control that that organization exerts over its members. OTOH, anecdotal evidence of the Small Group Movement also supports that hypothesis, However, most of those groups are found in megachurches, and we are back to the issue of the validity and reliability of that self-reported data.
People are hurting. His message might help them on Earth. But what happens when they die? Is his message going to help people then?
There are ways to tell a person that they are in sin, so that they will hear, understand, and act on that message.
If you meant “tolerance”, rather than “compromise”, I’d agree with you. But even tolerance can have the same harmful side effects as compromise has. The best essay on this topic I’ve read was written by Mapetla Mohapi. AFAIK, it hasn’t been reprinted.
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xan
jonathon
It might help people, but is it in accord with what the Bible teaches?
Satan can, and does cite Scripture, to further his (Satan’s) ends. Furthermore. Satan can perform “miracles” and the like, to give the illusion that he is God.
Whilst he doesn’t smell of sulfur, like certain entities in Solomon’s* Goetia*, that doesn’t make him demonic. I’ll also point out that some of those entities are incredibly beautiful.
If, by “appear to be”, you were referring to the results of his actions, then the question is: “How much has his congregation matured spiritually?”
Going by the published results of Willow Creek’s survey on spiritual maturity, the answer is “No”. (Indeed, one critic has claimed that whilst there is no correlation between spiritual maturity, and length of time of being a Christian, other data suggests that the correlation is negative.)
I’ll grant that Reveal Research methodology leaves much to be desired, because it relies on subjective statements, not objective data. Furthermore, it omits gathering some crucial data. Nonetheless it is a pointer.
One other issue with that research, is that it focuses on megachurches.
- Mega Church: Average weekend attendance is more than 2,000 people;
- Large Church: Average weekend attendance is between 301 and 2,000 people;
- Medium Church: Average weekend attendance is between 51 and 300 people;
- Small Church: Average weekend attendance is less than 50 people;
The median church in the U.S. has 75 regular participants in worship on Sunday mornings;
The average church in the U.S. has 186 regular participants in worship on Sunday mornings;
The difference between those two figures is due to the influence of large megachurches;
Here is another table that might illustrate the problem better:- Attendance: # Churches : Weekly Worshipers: Percent
- 7-99 : 177,000: 9 million : 59%
- 100-499 : 105,000 : 25 million : 35%
- 500-999: 12,000 : 9 Million : 4%
- 1,000-1,999 : 6,000 : 8 million :2%
- 2,000-9,999 : 1,170 : 4 million : 0.4%
- 10,000 + : 40 : 0.7 million : 0.01%
Do those in small churches or medium size churches show the same pattern? Based on the data from The Local Church, I’d suggest otherwise — ignoring issues about their theology. However, that data could be misleading, because of the control that that organization exerts over its members. OTOH, anecdotal evidence of the Small Group Movement also supports that hypothesis, However, most of those groups are found in megachurches, and we are back to the issue of the validity and reliability of that self-reported data.
One of the biggest Protestant criticisms of him, is that his teachings are harmful, because he does not preach salvation.
People are hurting. His message might help them on Earth. But what happens when they die? Is his message going to help people then?
Based on the unsolicited emails I get, I’d like to think that I am trying.
You have to tell it like it is. There are tactful ways, and untactful ways to tell a person that their actions are a sin.
There are ways to tell a person that they are in sin, so that they will hear, understand, and act on that message.
When there is a compromise, everybody loses, because not only does nobody get what they want, but everybody has to reject that that which they want, and believe in,
If you meant “tolerance”, rather than “compromise”, I’d agree with you. But even tolerance can have the same harmful side effects as compromise has. The best essay on this topic I’ve read was written by Mapetla Mohapi. AFAIK, it hasn’t been reprinted.
]xan
jonathon
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bengal_fan
Guest
i don’t feel like responding to all the posts individually and taking an hour to organize all the quotes from other posts so i will just say what i have to say and the people i am addressing should be able to figure it out.
i am the one who brought up joel’s education because i think it is necessary to bring it up. he is not a biblical scholar. not that being one assures orthodoxy, but he has not been trained to understand the scriptures, history, theology, etc. he is simply reading the words on the page (which aren’t the original words, they are a translation, but because of his lack of education in biblical matters, he does not know what the earliest manuscripts actually say in the original language).
now, there is benefit to taking the bible at its word, but the entirety of scripture must be used. joel does not use all of scripture to back up his claims. successdoes not always equal being blessed by God or even commissioned by God. many of the prophets were not “successful” by the standards of their time. also, Christ does preach a message of an abundant life, but i think joel’s interpretation of that is wrong which is why i said his teachings are heretical. abundant life includes suffering and pain. it means we will experience all of life to the fullest, not just have an abundance of stuff in our lives. i did not insult him, i simply gave my opinion of his teachings which is what was asked. i actually, repeatedly, pointed to his genuine personality and the good things he has done. but that does not make his teaching right.
there was no “attacking” in any of my posts, but opinion was given.
joel doesn’t just teach people to “claim the truths of the bible”. his teaching does go further and he does point to material wealth as a sign of God’s blessing. this, i believe, is against scripture for Jesus constantly reminds people that the poor are the ones who are truly blessed. He also calls those who follow Him to give up their possessions. and when He says, “and all these things shall be given to you as well…” He is not speaking of wealth being given to us from God. He is speaking of us being a part of the kingdom.
again, i think he and his church does some good. but i think the teaching is not biblically sound (and i think that directly relates to his lack of training), not true in reality, and dangerous when followed as though it is “gospel truth”.
incidentally, i do have training which is why i feel qualified to speak on this issue. i have gone to college, grad school (am going for my 2nd masters), and will eventually get my doctorate (fingers crossed). i teach regularly and have been taught how to discern scripture (and also taught that i must always question my own discernment). joel does not have this training and his incorrect teachings show that.
but he is a good guy.
i am the one who brought up joel’s education because i think it is necessary to bring it up. he is not a biblical scholar. not that being one assures orthodoxy, but he has not been trained to understand the scriptures, history, theology, etc. he is simply reading the words on the page (which aren’t the original words, they are a translation, but because of his lack of education in biblical matters, he does not know what the earliest manuscripts actually say in the original language).
now, there is benefit to taking the bible at its word, but the entirety of scripture must be used. joel does not use all of scripture to back up his claims. successdoes not always equal being blessed by God or even commissioned by God. many of the prophets were not “successful” by the standards of their time. also, Christ does preach a message of an abundant life, but i think joel’s interpretation of that is wrong which is why i said his teachings are heretical. abundant life includes suffering and pain. it means we will experience all of life to the fullest, not just have an abundance of stuff in our lives. i did not insult him, i simply gave my opinion of his teachings which is what was asked. i actually, repeatedly, pointed to his genuine personality and the good things he has done. but that does not make his teaching right.
there was no “attacking” in any of my posts, but opinion was given.
joel doesn’t just teach people to “claim the truths of the bible”. his teaching does go further and he does point to material wealth as a sign of God’s blessing. this, i believe, is against scripture for Jesus constantly reminds people that the poor are the ones who are truly blessed. He also calls those who follow Him to give up their possessions. and when He says, “and all these things shall be given to you as well…” He is not speaking of wealth being given to us from God. He is speaking of us being a part of the kingdom.
again, i think he and his church does some good. but i think the teaching is not biblically sound (and i think that directly relates to his lack of training), not true in reality, and dangerous when followed as though it is “gospel truth”.
incidentally, i do have training which is why i feel qualified to speak on this issue. i have gone to college, grad school (am going for my 2nd masters), and will eventually get my doctorate (fingers crossed). i teach regularly and have been taught how to discern scripture (and also taught that i must always question my own discernment). joel does not have this training and his incorrect teachings show that.
but he is a good guy.
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graceandglory
Guest
Well done, Bengal Fan!
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vocatio
Guest
I have abandoned this way long ago. I have been trying to become a teacher for quite some time. I just want to have anything to do with it. Every single person in my family that sought this life has ruined their life in their families. One of my brothers took his own life because he couldn’t accept defeat. My other brother I’ve spend years talking him down from believing this trash. A solid 8-5 job is respectable. Stop chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Save up and store in heaven.
Peace.
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